Why does America tolerate claims that Noah's Ark is factual?Genesis contains many creationist myths, including the story of Noah's Ark. This story is promoted by fundamentalists as geuinely...

Why does America tolerate claims that Noah's Ark is factual?

Genesis contains many creationist myths, including the story of Noah's Ark. This story is promoted by fundamentalists as geuinely factual, and thyey force it on to children. But anyone with a small knowledge of science can see that it is complete, undiluted nonsense and 100% disproved by the facts.

So why do we tolerate this primitive mythology as 'fact'? Why isn't America howling with laughter and anger at these ridiculous claims?

Is the moon made of cheese? Do storks deliver babies? Is The Earth flat?

Why is American society incapable of simply slapping this nonsense down? It is currently reaching half way up the steps of the Whitehouse, and yet we simply stay quiet and talk about 'tolerance'.

What is going on? 

Asked on by beefheart

17 Answers | Add Yours

shake99's profile pic

shake99 | Teacher | (Level 3) Senior Educator

Posted on

You don't REALLY know that it is mythological. You believe that it is mythological because you put your faith in what you consider to be "scientific" proof.

Science cannot prove that the Genesis accounts are not true. It can give evidence that might point in a certain direction and might be believed by many.

There are many kinds of faith. Faith in science is just one of them.

It is irrefutable that science cannot explain everything, like the true origin of the unverse (where did the material for the Big Bang come from--science cannot answer that).

Science has its uses and is fascinating. It is not the ultimate answer to anything. It is a tool.

catd1115's profile pic

catd1115 | Middle School Teacher | (Level 3) Assistant Educator

Posted on

I find it interesting that you and many of the above posters have used the word "tolerate". To me that word answers your question. American society is built on the ideals (in not the reality) of freedom and equality. PARTICULARLY freedom of  religion, speech and press. We "tolerate" any beliefs because none of us would want our rights to freely believe and speak about these beliefs infringed upon. None of us has the right to infringe upon anothers beliefs, as long as they are not hurting anyone. I do not want any sort of religious theory taught to children in public schools as facts, whether I believe them or not. It infringes upon my right to teach my children to believe as I see fit. Children need to learn about as many religions and systems of beliefs as they can in school, so they can understand the differences amongst us. That does not mean that any public institiution should be forcing any belief on any American. It also means you do not have the right to take away my beliefs and my right to believe them.

I find it interesting that everyone seems to think they are right, but the only right answer is that we all have the right to believe what we want and not force it upon anyone else.

bullgatortail's profile pic

bullgatortail | High School Teacher | (Level 1) Distinguished Educator

Posted on

As a youth, I was versed by a Presbyterian minister who believed in a combination of creationism and religious theory. He believed that the "seven days" in which God created the world were merely stages of time, and that life developed slowly over millions of years. It is not impossible to believe in both the scientific theory of creation as well as The Bible's version. Unlike many fundamental Christians, I don't take every word in The Bible literally, just as I don't believe every single theory presented by scientists. To ridicule all Christians for their faith is just as shortsighted as your own belief that the story of the Great Flood could not possibly have happened.

pohnpei397's profile pic

pohnpei397 | College Teacher | (Level 3) Distinguished Educator

Posted on

I wonder what you would recommend.  What's the alternative to "tolerating" it?  Do we ban people from teaching their children that Noah's Ark was a real thing and that the flood really happened?  Short of that, what are we supposed to do?  We already teach evolution in schools and there is no mention of the alleged flood.  So I'm just wondering what you think should be done.

As to why people still believe, I think it's partly political.  We're so split between left and right today that I think people will automatically discount anything that the other side believes.  This helps push people on the right to believe in things simply because the left is so strongly opposed.

najm1947's profile pic

najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted on

Frizzy, you are an expert in 'Religion' and 'Creationism':

 http://www.enotes.com/people/frizzyperm

You say, "...  the entire Earth was flooded and only one Jewish family survived," in your post 13.

So I neither find my self capable nor consider it appropriate to drag on the discussion with an expert in 'Religion and Creationism' of this authority. I have already said what I had to. You can make any claim and prove it likewise. You can term Noah to be Jewish or deny his existence, that's entirely your choice. 

frizzyperm's profile pic

frizzyperm | College Teacher | (Level 1) Educator

Posted on

I don't care what you 'believe', Najm. You can believe what you like. Feel free. You can believe the moon is made from worn-out Goodyear tyres, painted white by psychedelic space-monkeys. Just saying 'I believe it' is not going to change it's truth value.

The story of Noah is provably wrong . You can 'believe it' if you like, but you will be wrong too. And just because your belief is a religious one, that does not somehow automatically earn it special status and elevate it above the Goodyear Space-Monkeys.

Noah's Ark is provably an ancient myth, Najm...with exactly the same level of factual accuracy as Zeus.

najm1947's profile pic

najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted on

Thanks Frizzy. What a blunder I have made to refer to the chariot wheel to which Allah (God) has not provided me with a sign. I beg His forgiveness for this wrong doing. I should have referred to what Allah has revealed about the said Pharaoh:

"Now! whilst thou hast already disobeyed and been one of the evil-doers.

Therefore We will rescue thy corpse this day that thou mayest be a sign for him who succeeds thee."

But most people are heedless of our signs. (Quran 10:91-92)

And this was proved by Dr. Maurice Bucaille, who did the autopsy of the mummy of the Pharaoh.

http://www.ezsoftech.com/giknowledge/firaun.mummy.asp

"But most people are heedless of our signs.", as Allah has said. So Frizzy, you may still stick to your opinion or agree with me, it's surely your own sweet choice.

However, in the end I would say, "If Quran is not wrong about the Exodus, it is not wrong about the Noah's Ark as well." It is a matter of belief for me and for the other Muslim believers.

frizzyperm's profile pic

frizzyperm | College Teacher | (Level 1) Educator

Posted on

Uh-huh... big surprise... This chariot wheel 'proof' of yours is the work of Ron Wyatt. By the time of his death on August 4, 1999, Wyatt claimed he had discovered the following:

A busy lad, wasn't he? Wyatt was not an archeaologist and where-ever he went, bitter scandal followed him. He was a known fraudster for Jesus. A liar and a cheat and most definitely NOT an academic. So your 'proved facts' took me one Google search to totally reveal as the work of a charlatan. Doesn't google work in Pakistan, Najm?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Wyatt

 

najm1947's profile pic

najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted on

I've never heard of this 'chariot wheel', please link me to the evidence ... Frizzy

There are many links but you may refer to the following link.

http://www.british-israel.ca/redsea.htm

Coming to the Noah's Ark, it is a prehistoric event and no one knows on the time-line when did it occur. So saying:

Nobody who's thought about it critically could claim that, a few 1000 years ago, the entire Earth was flooded and only one Jewish family survived, on a boat full of animals. - Frizzy

is also invalid. What to discuss with someone who does not know even the hierarchy of Prophets. Noah was not a Jewish. He lived long before Abraham whereas Jewish people are the descendants of the Jacob, Isaac's son and Abraham's grandson.

The book I follow i.e. Quaran does not say that the entire Earth was flooded. Quran is silent about its extent, and knowing the ways of God, the calamity is for the people who have not listened to the words of His prophets. Hence it can not be inferred that it was for the whole Earth as Noah could not make his voice reach the whole Earth at that prehistoric time.

You are working on baseless assumptions from my point of view, Frizzy.

frizzyperm's profile pic

frizzyperm | College Teacher | (Level 1) Educator

Posted on

The Golden Chariot Wheel has been discovered and if you contest it then it would be going against proved facts. - Najm

I've never heard of this 'chariot wheel', please link me to the evidence and, well, I bet it will take me five minutes of internet searching to discover why it is a hoax and not 'proved facts'.

Najm, the story of Noah's ark is nonsense. Nobody who's thought about it critically could claim that, a few 1000 years ago, the entire Earth was flooded and only one Jewish family survived, on a boat full of animals. This story generates literally thousands of impossible questions. It is provably not true. For example...

  • Chinese society didn't get flooded out, why not?
  • Noah collected every animal and plant on Earth? Polar bears, Siberian tigers, South American jungle beetles, penguins? Every bug in the world?
  • Noah sailed to the New World?
  • How did the 1000s of fatal diseases survive the flood? In their hosts? So how did the hosts survive?
  • The dimensions of The Ark, stated in the Bible, are structurally impossible to construct from wood. The Ark would have sunk.
  • How did fresh-water fish and trees survive?
  • Why aren't we descended from Noah genetically?

 

If Scriptures are not wrong about the Exodus, these can't be wrong about the Noah's Ark - It is a matter of belief. Zeus was a myth hence not being searched - Zeus never existed. - Najm

I always underestimate the split-level thinking of believers. 

najm1947's profile pic

najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted on

Why does the fact that people are prepared to spend money to find the ark suggest that the ark must be real? People are illogical. People do illogical things. - Beefheart

I would ask, "Was Exodus of Israelite and Drowning of Ramses real and not illogical?" The answer should be that it was more illogical than the Noah's Ark, how could the Rod split the Red Sea? But you would not raise this question because The Golden Chariot Wheel has been discovered and if you contest it then it would be going against proved facts.

So if this is acceptable then the Noah's Ark should also be acceptable and I am not joking. The reason is that your logic is based on the imperfect and incomplete knowledge called science. The science today has not yet revealed a drop from the ocean of mysteries of the universe.

To me negating something without proof is also illogical. I agree, "people are illogical. People do illogical things."

Surely we don't know where is Noah's Ark but it would not be a long wait. The global warming, to which US is the biggest contributor, will soon melt all the glaciers and people will see it for themselves though we may not be there to witness the Ark.

If Scriptures are not wrong about the Exodus, these cann't be wrong about the Noah's Ark - It is a matter of belief. Zeus was a myth hence not being searched - Zeus never existed.

beefheart's profile pic

beefheart | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 3) Honors

Posted on

Why have people been spending so much in search of the Noah's Ark if they were sure it was just a myth? Why they don't spend so much in search of Zeus or other gods?- Najm

Sorry, Najm, but that's what I'm talking about. 

1) Do you know any believers in Zeus? No. But 2000 years ago I bet you could have found many investors willing to finance an expedition to discover the birthplace of Zeus or the place Zeus transformed into a bull etc.

You prove my point. Where is Zeus today? Who weeps for Zeus? He was Master of the Universe. A God among Gods. An uber-God with millions of worshippers. But what is Zeus to us now? Nothing... He's just a shabby myth. Where did he go?

2) Why does the fact that people are prepared to spend money to find the ark suggest that the ark must be real? People are illogical. People do illogical things. You have surely noticed that?

When people try to insist that science must bow down to their illogical stories just because they 'BELIEVE' them, then I wonder if the followers of Zeus would have demanded the same obedience. Zeus didn't lift a finger to protect his territory, but I bet his followers did. And I bet the smaller Zeus's influence got, the harder his hard-core followers fought. 

Today, religious followers are trying to over-power science for the sake of their fundamentalist myths. And you said,

They are not forcing [their religious beliefs] upon you.

You're must be joking, right?

beefheart's profile pic

beefheart | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 3) Honors

Posted on

Why have people been spending so much in search of the Noah's Ark if they were sure it was just a myth? Why they don't spend so much in search of Zeus or other gods?- Najm

Sorry, Najm, but that's what I'm talking about. 

1) Do you know any believers in Zeus? No. But 2000 years ago I bet you could have found many investors willing to finance an expedition to discover the birthplace of Zeus or the place Zeus transformed into a bull etc.

You prove my point. Where is Zeus today? Who weeps for Zeus? He was Master of the Universe. A God among Gods. An uber-God with millions of worshippers. But what is Zeus to us now? Nothing... He's just a shabby myth. Where did he go?

2) Why does the fact that people are prepared to spend money to find the ark suggest that the ark must be real? People are illogical. People do illogical things. You have surely noticed that?

When people try to insist that science must bow down to their illogical stories just because they 'BELIEVE' them, then I wonder if the followers of Zeus would have demanded the same obedience. Zeus didn't lift a finger to protect his territory, but I bet his followers did. And I bet the smaller Zeus's influence got, the harder his hard-core followers fought. 

Today, religious followers are trying to over-power science for the sake of their fundamentalist myths. And you said,

They are not forcing [their religious beliefs] upon you.

You're must be joking, right?

najm1947's profile pic

najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted on

In reply to 8:

The whole passage right to the end of the post and starting with:

"What really pops my bubble is that nobody else exercises their freedom of speech to laugh in their face, ...." - Beefheart

shows your desire to publicly humiliate people for what you think is stupid. I do not want defend their so called 'stupidity' but would say that if you have the liberty of public humiliation and ridicule in US, go ahead but I would say it's playing with fire. It can backfire and can cause public unrest. I think ridiculing someone's belief in public is not liberty. They are not forcing it upon you.

Secondly, why people have been spending so much in search of the Noah's Ark if they were sure it was just a myth? Why they don't spend so much in search of Zeus or other gods?

beefheart's profile pic

beefheart | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 3) Honors

Posted on

I find it interesting that you and many of the above posters have used the word "tolerate". To me that word answers your question. American society is built on the ideals (in not the reality) of freedom and equality. PARTICULARLY freedom of  religion, speech and press. We "tolerate" any beliefs because none of us would want our rights to freely believe and speak about these beliefs infringed upon. None of us has the right to infringe upon anothers beliefs, as long as they are not hurting anyone. I do not want any sort of religious theory taught to children in public schools as facts, whether I believe them or not. It infringes upon my right to teach my children to believe as I see fit. Children need to learn about as many religions and systems of beliefs as they can in school, so they can understand the differences amongst us. That does not mean that any public institiution should be forcing any belief on any American. It also means you do not have the right to take away my beliefs and my right to believe them.

I find it interesting that everyone seems to think they are right, but the only right answer is that we all have the right to believe what we want and not force it upon anyone else.

 

I find it interesting that everyone seems to think they are right, but the only right answer is that we all have the right to believe what we want and not force it upon anyone else. - catd1115

I'm starting to think that maybe I phrased my question badly. I'm not asking for the removal of liberty, nor the removal of the right to believe whatever you like. My point was supposed to be this...

When these Cretards do their shtick about denying evolution and support a young earth etc, they are exercising their freedom of speech. Which is fine. What really pops my bubble is that nobody else exercises their freedom of speech to laugh in their face, call them an idiot and tell them to shut up.

They have the right to publicly parade their arrogant stupidity, but we have the right to ignore them, spurn them, shun them, ridicule them, denounce them, hound them and make things socially uncomfortable for them.

When I said "why do we tolerate them?" I meant, "Why do we passively tolerate their rising power and not defend the 'public square' from their dangerous, backward, ignorant stupidity?"

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