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Proof of God's ExistenceWhile Philosophers have sought thousands of years to provide...

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granny54 | Student, College Freshman | Valedictorian

Posted January 18, 2012 at 6:33 PM via web

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Proof of God's Existence

While Philosophers have sought thousands of years to provide proof that God exists, which of these arguments: Ontological argument (God contains all perfections, including existence. God necessarily exists), Cosmological argument (All things are the result of earlier causes; that causal sequence had to begin, and only God could have begun it), or Argument from design (Things in nature demonstrate too much complexity and design to have arisen by accident; God must exist in order to have created and designed that complexity), seem to be the best proof of the existence of God?

 

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readerofbooks | College Teacher | (Level 2) Educator Emeritus

Posted January 18, 2012 at 7:43 PM (Answer #2)

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The ones that you mention are certain the most popular ones. However, there are others. While I was in graduate school one of the famous ones was rooted in history. The argument goes something like this. The vast majority of people in the world from a historical point of view believed in the divine. This went across different cultures and peoples. Atheism is something fairly new. In addition, sociologists point out that religion is on the upswing even in our modern world. So, the sheer number of people, according to this line of reasoning has some power.

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beefheart | Student, Undergraduate | Honors

Posted January 18, 2012 at 8:46 PM (Answer #3)

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You offered 3 arguments for God's existence...

1) The ontological argument: "If God is the ultimate perfection, he must exist, because he's less perfect if he doesn't."

This is a false argument for me because it is so obviously circular...

a) I have conceptualised this absolutely perfect being called 'God'.

b) A 'God' which exists is more perfect than a 'God' which doesn't.

c) Therefore my concept of 'God' must exist.

I fail to understand how this convinces anyone.

2) The cosmological argument: "Every effect has an cause. We can trace the line of causes back to the start of the Universe. The Universe needs a cause to start, ergo, God started the Universe. Ergo, God exists."

The flaw with this argument is that you assume the laws which govern our basic, observable universe apply to pre-universal conditions. Quantum Physics suggests that is unwise. Assertions about the nature of the pre-universe cannot be made from simple observations of the world around us.

3) The teleological argument: "Life appears to have been designed, therefore it was designed and the designer was God."

This argument was closed with the publication of The Origin of Species in 1859. Complexity can arise from simpler forms without the need for a creator. And, in fact, on closer inspection, life on Earth is full of faulty, ad-hoc designs, consistent with evolution but inconsistent with the idea of a perfect designer.

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enotechris | College Teacher | (Level 2) Senior Educator

Posted January 18, 2012 at 10:21 PM (Answer #4)

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The problem, as #3 clearly states by example, is that any attempt to prove God must be by a process beyond human reason, or as the Catholics like to say, as an "Act of Faith."  That requires a jump from one postulate to another, which may or may not be logically warranted as in a proof, as statement #2 in the preceding post analyzed. If God is All-in-All, the Be-All and End-All, human constructs, which by definition serve to delineate, cannot contain the concept of a divinity, since by definition a divinity transcends all human constructs.

Certainly there is structure, wonder and beauty in the Universe. Those may be presented as evidence of divinity, but they are not proof.

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pohnpei397 | College Teacher | (Level 3) Distinguished Educator

Posted January 18, 2012 at 10:36 PM (Answer #5)

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None of these three seems to be any real sort of proof.  I agree with the basic idea of Post #3.  I would add to that the argument that, if everything must be the result of an earlier cause, then we have to wonder what caused God.  I don't think that it's proof to say "everything came from something else UNTIL WE GET TO GOD."

We can't prove the existence of God.  It's something we have to take on faith or on the evidence of our own emotions.

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wannam | High School Teacher | (Level 3) Educator

Posted January 18, 2012 at 10:54 PM (Answer #6)

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Out of the three, I would say that argument by design is the easiest support.  However, I also agree with post 3 that this is still very subjective.  I see God in the design of nature because I believe in God.  The designs and intricacies of life support my belief but they do not prove it.  I think the whole point is that you can't prove God exists.  Of course, you can't prove that he doesn't exist either.  Belief in any deity is a matter of faith rather than proof.

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bullgatortail | High School Teacher | (Level 1) Distinguished Educator

Posted January 19, 2012 at 12:37 AM (Answer #7)

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Until God materializes and addresses each and every living creature on Earth, there can be no proof that God exists, and atheists and agnostics would not believe in God even in the case of this scenario. "Faith" is the key word here, and the belief in a Supreme Being is based on this one word. 

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litteacher8 | Middle School Teacher | (Level 1) Distinguished Educator

Posted January 19, 2012 at 1:19 AM (Answer #8)

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There is no way to prove that God exists.  There is also no way to prove that God does not exist.  God also might have existed, but exist no more.  After all, some believe that God is dead.  I am not sure how that fits in with your definition of Heaven and Hell, but it does get complicated.

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stolperia | (Level 1) Educator Emeritus

Posted January 19, 2012 at 1:45 AM (Answer #9)

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I don't need proof - I believe. Because I believe, I interpret all things through the lens of my faith and belief in the existence of God. Because I interpret all things through that lens, I don't have to explain how God came to exist before all other things or how God caused or shaped the creation of the universe - I believe that it happened and that many things are beyond my human ability to understand or explain in a rational, logical manner.

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Karen P.L. Hardison | College Teacher | eNotes Employee

Posted January 19, 2012 at 4:46 AM (Answer #11)

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1. "God contains all perfections, including existence. God necessarily exists": This addresses more the identity, the defining attribute, of God rather than addressing the causative principles behind the presence of God.

2. "All things are the result of earlier causes; that causal sequence had to begin, and only God could have begun it": This presents a logical fallacy since an exhaustive catalogue of the inceptions of causalities doesn't exist.

3. "Things in nature demonstrate too much complexity and design to have arisen by accident; God must exist in order to have created and designed that complexity": This is persuasive speculation based upon observable fact. Of the three, this is most plausible since it acknowledges within itself its speculative nature.

A fourth persuasive argument option favored by some is akin to the persuasive argument for the notion of romantic love, one never yet successfully refuted: "I feel something life changing, valuable and affirmative and euphoric otherwise unaccountable; therefore it must be God [or: therefore it must be love]".

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stegny | Student, Undergraduate | eNoter

Posted January 19, 2012 at 7:12 AM (Answer #13)

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Proof of God's Existence

While Philosophers have sought thousands of years to provide proof that God exists, which of these arguments: Ontological argument (God contains all perfections, including existence. God necessarily exists), Cosmological argument (All things are the result of earlier causes; that causal sequence had to begin, and only God could have begun it), or Argument from design (Things in nature demonstrate too much complexity and design to have arisen by accident; God must exist in order to have created and designed that complexity), seem to be the best proof of the existence of God?

 

Hi, regarding the Cosmological argument (All things are the result of earlier causes; that causal sequence had to begin, and only God could have begun it)

The cosmological argument claims that everything is caused by an earlier event and so the first event needs a God to start it, because God is an uncaused cause. But this argument (that every event has a prior cause except God) is a time-based argument. In other words, one event must happen before another event, a prior event happened before that one etc. Each preceding event is earlier and earlier.

Time is a property of the universe. You need a universe for time to exist. If there is no universe then there is no time. So, to say that there must have been an event before the universe started is meaningless. There was no 'before' the universe. The big bang was the first time-based event, you can't assert that a time-based causality operated before the universe began.

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granny54 | Student, College Freshman | Valedictorian

Posted January 19, 2012 at 11:24 AM (Answer #14)

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I don't need proof - I believe. Because I believe, I interpret all things through the lens of my faith and belief in the existence of God. Because I interpret all things through that lens, I don't have to explain how God came to exist before all other things or how God caused or shaped the creation of the universe - I believe that it happened and that many things are beyond my human ability to understand or explain in a rational, logical manner.

I really like what you said, and so is my belief as well. But tell, me, which one of those arguments would best relate to the existence of God? I know that we cannot rely on either one of those arguments, but which one is closest to your knowledge?

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princessita-2-day | Student, Grade 12 | Valedictorian

Posted January 21, 2012 at 11:04 AM (Answer #15)

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God designed the planets and humans and flowers and everything, he made life possible to earth specifically and in the bible it talks about his amazing things he has done likt the clouds, air and everything which is amazing.

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boblawrence | (Level 1) Associate Educator

Posted January 24, 2012 at 7:45 AM (Answer #16)

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If there were a proof of God's existence, there would be no controversy.  Saying things like, "the complexity of our world proves a devine intervention in its creation", is no more a proof of God's existence,than saying "I'm sure there's a God because I don't think man created his own universe."

A significant problem in discussions like this revolves around what one's idea of God happens to be.  Is she a force, a being...or merely that ill-defined thing we call "nature"?

Since there is no universal definition of God, and vast differences in religeous beliefs throughout the world, the likelihood of proof of God's existence to the satisfaction of the majority of human beings seems unlikely in the extreme.

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loraaa | Student | Valedictorian

Posted January 28, 2012 at 8:12 PM (Answer #17)

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Can you prove that you exist? Yes, of course you can. You merely use your senses to determine that you can see, hear, feel, smell, taste and you have emotions as well. All of this is a part of your existence. But this is not how we perceive God. We can look to the things that He has created and the way that He cares for things and sustains us, to know that there is no doubt of His existence.

Think about this the next time that you are looking up at the moon or the stars on a clear night; could you drop a drinking glass on the sidewalk and expect that it would hit the ground and on impact it would not shatter, but it would divide up into little small drinking glasses, with iced tea in them? Of course not.

And then consider if a tornado came through a junkyard and tore through the old cars; would it leave behind a nice new Mercedes with the engine running and no parts left around? Naturally not.

Can a fast food restaurant operate itself without any people there? That's crazy for anyone to even think about.

After considering all of the above, how could we look to the universe above us through a telescope or observe the molecules in a microscope and then think that all of this came about as a result of a "big bang" or some "accident?"

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted January 28, 2012 at 9:29 PM (Answer #18)

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Hi Loraaa,

Something funny just happened, I googled your post to see where it was originally from and the first link google offered me was a muslim website called www.godallah.com/proof.php . They use your text too!

And even so, it is a completely false argument. It suggests the scientific explanation for the universe is a just absolute randomness. If a tornado went through a junkyard and built a Mercedes, that would be a perfect miracle, Evolution is NOT comparable to it. Natural selection is NOT a random, instant process!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection

Natural selection is the gradual, nonrandom process by which biological traits become either more or less common in a population... It is a key mechanism of evolution. (from Wiki)

Natural selection is a gradual, non-random process. A tornado instantly building a complete new car from bits and bobs in one chaotic whooosh has NOTHING to do with evolution. You have fallen victim to a 'strawman argument'. The author presented you with ridiculous, absurd models of evolution (the junkyard Merc, the breaking glass) and then ripped them to pieces as impossible. But his representation of evolution was a totally false strawman. Evolution does not instantaneously whoosh completed organisms into existence. And evolutionary biologists get very frustrated by these gross misrepresentations of their work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_argument

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted January 29, 2012 at 1:51 AM (Answer #19)

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There have been interesting arguments for and against the existence of God.  The discussion has been summarised nicely to a conclusion at 16 by boblawrence. I would add that all the wise people have been presenting hypothesis and theories from the very beginning but not many of these have stood to the test of advancement of knowledge and all are being continuously changed or discarded altogether. One of these, which has not changed is that "The part cannot be equal to the whole".

So far all the wisdom of scientists have not been able to discover completely the structure of the basic particle - atom. In spite of this fact, we have embarked to understand the God, who is by definition the Creator and the all-Wise. Our combined wisdom cannot contain or envelop the wisdom of the all-Wise. To prove that God exists through logic, which is only a part of the overall wisdom seems to be irrational mathematically. God has to be believed in for the above reason only.

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted January 29, 2012 at 1:34 PM (Answer #21)

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Thanks frizzyperm for the comments at 20. I am not arguing to work with any equation. What I am trying to say is that if I am a Grade-1 student, I cannot comprehend the complex theories of Quantum Mechanics. I have to acquire a comparable knowledge in subject to understand and comment on these theories.

Here to understand the God completely, as defined by His attributes, I have to be at least equal to God in all His attribute, if not more. I should be able to create a Universe more orderly than what it is today. This is possible only if we understand the Universe completely. What we see in the sky today is the state of celestial objects millions & billion years ago. We do not know the state or position of the galaxies today. We are just making calculated guesses to establish their status during the lapsed time and in future.

With this state of knowledge, I do not find myself to be in any position to comment on the existence or non-existence of God, so I retreat. I leave the discussion to be pursued by those who think they are as wise as the God to prove His existence or otherwise. I am happy with my belief in God.

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johnsons23 | eNoter

Posted February 5, 2012 at 2:11 AM (Answer #22)

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I came across this post and definitely found it to be an interesting one. Just a college student here so take what I say as you would like but I am a firm believer in "intelligent design". I believe that God put us here knowing that we would need to adapt and fully knowing that we would screw up this perfect earth. Without the ability to adapt, we would not be able to exist. I, for one, do not believe however that we were capable of adapting as much as we have and as much as we will need to in order to continuing living on the earth. Intelligent design suggests that God knew this long before any of us did and this is why we have been put here with the abilities to adapt and adjust to different situations.

 

Also, I find it hard to believe that one man fooled soooo many people! I am a Christian, so by "one man", I am speaking about Jesus Christ. I believe that he is the son of God, however, I do not believe that all other religions are wrong. The reason for this is because many of the important people in books such as The Koran, The Bible, ect... are mentioned in other books. For example: Just as Jesus is mentioned in the Muslim religion, Mohammad is mentioned in the bible as a desciple of God. Although he is not the son of God, according to the book I have been taught from, I do find it rather coincidental that all of these people were somehow intertwined with one-another. Perhaps the stories just got mixed up along the way?

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johnsons23 | eNoter

Posted February 5, 2012 at 2:14 AM (Answer #23)

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Don't you find it rather ubsurd that we have perfectly symmetrical bodies that allow us to function exactly as we need them to? Our respitory systems, brains, legs, arms, hearts, are the most amazing functions on this earth. Do you believe that was all coincidence? I do not

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theresacoy95 | Student, Grade 10 | eNoter

Posted February 5, 2012 at 5:42 PM (Answer #25)

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I believe in God because even though i can't see him, hear him, i know he is there to guide me always.

If you think about it, would most of the world's population pray to him and hold a mass in his name if he does'nt exist?

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musiclover1776 | Student, Grade 9 | eNoter

Posted February 6, 2012 at 2:43 AM (Answer #26)

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I don't need proof - I believe. Because I believe, I interpret all things through the lens of my faith and belief in the existence of God. Because I interpret all things through that lens, I don't have to explain how God came to exist before all other things or how God caused or shaped the creation of the universe - I believe that it happened and that many things are beyond my human ability to understand or explain in a rational, logical manner.

I agree whole heartedly with your answer, when I read this question I have to say I was unsurprised It's a question I have been asked before, And I answered the exact way you did. I am very glad that I am not the only one that agrees

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jannatjan | Student, Grade 9 | eNotes Newbie

Posted February 8, 2012 at 4:18 AM (Answer #28)

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Proof of God's Existence

While Philosophers have sought thousands of years to provide proof that God exists, which of these arguments: Ontological argument (God contains all perfections, including existence. God necessarily exists), Cosmological argument (All things are the result of earlier causes; that causal sequence had to begin, and only God could have begun it), or Argument from design (Things in nature demonstrate too much complexity and design to have arisen by accident; God must exist in order to have created and designed that complexity), seem to be the best proof of the existence of God?

 

this not the only evidence that god exists there are other evidence that can proof that god exists for example look at ourselves we are human our bodies are perfectly designed we have two eyes to see, we have mouth to eat,teeths to breakdown food,legs to walk.everything in our body is balanced. we are the creation of one and only god.

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 12, 2012 at 1:44 AM (Answer #34)

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Men have been created by God having love of sons among other things as revealed in Koran.

Fair appears to men the love of enjoyment of women, and sons, and stores together of gold, and silver, and well-bred horses, and cattle, and fields. And what is with God is the best retreat. (Koran 3:14)

Man needs the son because he wants his name and tribe to stay. God is Ever-Living. Why would He need a son?

According to Christian belief, Jesus is the son of God as stated by johnsons23. Why God needed a son is just not understandable to Muslims. Son is desired by someone who has to die to keep his name living and complete his leftover jobs. These are human attributes whereas God is Ever-Living and All-Mighty. Muslims believe in one God.

Say thou: He is God the One, God Unique, He gives not birth; Nor is He born. Neither is there anyone like unto Him. (Koran 112:1-5)

Muslims also believe in all the prophets including Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, David, Moses and Jesus, and all the Holy Books, and believe that Mohammad was His last prophet as prophesied in other holy books, And also in the Afterlife.

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wordprof | College Teacher | (Level 3) Senior Educator

Posted February 12, 2012 at 8:27 AM (Answer #35)

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You are trying to use logic, a human invention, to discuss the "existence" of a being or force beyond logic. Just because we can form the sentence "Does God exist?" does not make the inquiry valid.
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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 13, 2012 at 11:58 AM (Answer #36)

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Logic is not a human invention but is an offshoot of wisdom, and wisdom is a blessing of God.

He grants wisdom to whom he pleases, and whoever is granted wisdom then he is granted a great good. And none remember this except those possessed of understanding. (Koran 2:269)

The main problem is that the followers of Abraham has stuck to the versions which were for a specific period or tribe and did not embrace the final and complete version of that religion - Islam.

..... This day have I perfected for you your faith, and completed My blessings upon you, And have accepted for you Al-Islam as religion; ... (Koran 5:3)

Why are we so prejudiced?

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ninsan97 | Student, Grade 11 | eNoter

Posted February 14, 2012 at 1:14 AM (Answer #37)

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God does exist and there is proof for it.

  • how did the universe come into existance? scientists say that the universe was created by the big bang. this big bang theory was discovered around 1964; 46 years ago. however the quran (islamic holy book) mentions the big bang in surah ambiya 21:30  more than 1400 years ago when it was written. so who could have mentioned it more than 1400 years ago when it was only discovered in 1964?
  • the fact that the world is round was founded by sir francis drake is 1597 when he sailed around the earth he found that the earth was spherical. the quran mentions in surah annaziat 79:30 that the earth is not flat but round. so who could have mentioned it 1400 years in the quran when it ws only discovered in 1597?   
  • earlier we were taught that the sun does not move but stays still. only recently has it been discovered that the sun also orbits around in its own axis. the quran mentions this 1400 years ago in surah anbiyaa 21:33, who could have mentioned this when it was only discovered recently?

the answer to all this is GOD. God is the creator of the Quran and he mentions these facts even before they were discovered so this is clear proof that god does exist. there are mnay more scientific facts but im sure these will be enough.

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texasmilly | Student, College Freshman | eNoter

Posted February 14, 2012 at 3:01 AM (Answer #38)

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God does exist and there is proof for it.

  • how did the universe come into existance? scientists say that the universe was created by the big bang. this big bang theory was discovered around 1964; 46 years ago. however the quran (islamic holy book) mentions the big bang in surah ambiya 21:30  more than 1400 years ago when it was written. so who could have mentioned it more than 1400 years ago when it was only discovered in 1964?
  • the fact that the world is round was founded by sir francis drake is 1597 when he sailed around the earth he found that the earth was spherical. the quran mentions in surah annaziat 79:30 that the earth is not flat but round. so who could have mentioned it 1400 years in the quran when it ws only discovered in 1597?   
  • earlier we were taught that the sun does not move but stays still. only recently has it been discovered that the sun also orbits around in its own axis. the quran mentions this 1400 years ago in surah anbiyaa 21:33, who could have mentioned this when it was only discovered recently?

the answer to all this is GOD. God is the creator of the Quran and he mentions these facts even before they were discovered so this is clear proof that god does exist. there are mnay more scientific facts but im sure these will be enough.

If the 1400 year-old Koran is so full of amazingly clear scientific knowledge, why did Muslims only claim that scientific knowledge AFTER it has been discovered by scientists? Muslims weren't proving God with the Big Bang 100 years ago. Or the fact that the Earth is spherical 500 years ago. (besides, everyone knows that the Koran repeatedly describes the Earth as 'like a carpet')

Why didn't Muslims understand the clear and accurate science in the Koran before modern science did all the hard work for you?

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 14, 2012 at 11:18 AM (Answer #40)

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Reply to post 38: It is not now after 1400 years that Muslims started owning the scientific knowledge. For this you may refer to the link below with some excerpts from the page hereunder:

Main article: Islamic Golden Age

Further information: Early Islamic philosophy and Inventions in the Muslim world

"In virtually every field of endeavor -in astronomy, alchemy, mathematics, medicine, optics and so forth- Arab scientists were in the forefront of scientific advance."[24]

The Islamic Golden Age was inaugurated by the middle of the 8th century by the ascension of the Abbasid Caliphate and the transfer of the capital from Damascus to Baghdad.[25] The Abbassids were influenced by the Qur'anic injunctions and hadith such as "the ink of a scholar is more holy than the blood of a martyr" stressing the value of knowledge.[25] During this period the Muslim world became an intellectual center for science, philosophy, medicine and education as the Abbasids championed the cause of knowledge and established the House of Wisdom in Baghdad……

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate#Golden_Age

The scientific knowledge acquired by Muslims in that period provided the foundation for modern science. It was only when the Muslims moved away from the Quranic injunctions that they fell in to misery.

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just-s | Student, Grade 11 | Valedictorian

Posted February 15, 2012 at 3:57 AM (Answer #42)

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well according to my religion there are many proofs that god exists i can list a few( these proofs are from our holy book):example:1- the mulberry leaf, it has 1 taste, yet when the silk worm eats it produces silk, when the bees eat it, it produces honey, when goats eat it, it produces dung, when the gazelle eats it produces musk whereas it is still the same thing the mulberry leaf!!!

**now if there was no god the who has created all of this and if there was no god they all would have produced the same thing!!!

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ninsan97 | Student, Grade 11 | eNoter

Posted February 15, 2012 at 5:13 PM (Answer #43)

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in reply to #38

muslims did not write the quran so muslims were not proving god with the big bang and neither was god who did write the quran. but the fact that i am trying to make is that the quran mentions scientific facts 1400 years when they are being discovered recently so it must have been god who wrote the quran as no-one else knew about these facts.  

the quran never mentions that the earth is flat. the quote that you gave is righ, the quran does mention in places that the earth is like a carpet or bed (spread out). but this does not mean that it says that the earth is flat. the deeper layers of the earth is very hot and hostile to any form of life. the earths crust it solidified shell which we live on. the quran rightly refers to it like a carpet spread out, so we can live along its roads and paths. it is a comfortable place for muslims to worship god without any trouble. it does not mean that the earth is flat.  

the reason i am mentioning science is because it is the time of science now and many people rely on science, however there are many more ways to prove that god does exist. 

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bhawanipur | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 16, 2012 at 10:25 AM (Answer #46)

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I have read all the posts and I feel quite indebted to all of them for putting forward their point of view and there by trying to prove or disprove the existence of God. I read in an Essay by Dr S Radhakrishnan, an Indian philosopher and the first vice president and the second President of India that a philosopher named Masnavi said that there are as many ways to God as many minds. It proves here in the discussion. Will all the philosophies we are helpless to prove the existence of God unless one believes in those arguments and also none can deny that there is not something above us. If energy is there in an atom, molecule or even minuscule, where from it comes. This is yet to quest and found out by science. Now, Science is a process to experiment with the matter which Indian philosophy considers as knowledge. Certainly it will take time for science to do so.

I am not a student of philosophy and I have hardly knowledge in it. But I have studies some books on Indian philosophies. In them I find that the whole universe is a body of God. God is omnipresent. One needs to quest Him and realize not prove.

 

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bhawanipur | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 16, 2012 at 10:40 AM (Answer #47)

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In vedanta philosophy, in the first Sutra(definition), the saint had not given any clue about God, how he looks or where is he. He says, He is there in every atom; you find it out acquiring knowledge. You will be able to realize that He is in and around you. Without Him nothing is visible to us. He is there, so we are. In the world everything is generating spontaneouly, operating and destruction takes place without giving us any notice or warning. No body knew, there is called Tsunami and it can create havoc. Earthquake, we cannot predict.

I find mystery in it that science has progressed a lot and yet it is ignorant about our death. Why do we die? When we are alive we cannot tolerate sun heat but after death it is burnt and becomes ashes. The energy filled in our body which we call consciousness is not the same with the energy that is in our material bodexist even after death. Then what it is that make us conscious and unconscious.

In view of the above, we have been taught that everything in and beyond the world is 'Leela' of the Almighty; He wants to play being more than one and so he is in everything and in every object. Now, if all becomes the same, it won't look beautiful. Beauty lies in variety. Let us accept it all as a play of Him. Our bounden duty is to quest for knowledge, render service to all without any aspirations

I apologise to all the readers for anything wrong I have posted here and there byt hurt their emotion.

 

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 18, 2012 at 5:13 AM (Answer #49)

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There is no proof of God's existence and if you say there is, then I don't know what you're talking about. What's more, I'm pretty sure you don't too.

You can't prove God exists. This has been understood for centuries by philosophers and theologians everywhere.

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jenniferjcthompson | High School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 18, 2012 at 9:27 AM (Answer #50)

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Proof of God's Existence

While Philosophers have sought thousands of years to provide proof that God exists, which of these arguments: Ontological argument (God contains all perfections, including existence. God necessarily exists), Cosmological argument (All things are the result of earlier causes; that causal sequence had to begin, and only God could have begun it), or Argument from design (Things in nature demonstrate too much complexity and design to have arisen by accident; God must exist in order to have created and designed that complexity), seem to be the best proof of the existence of God?

 

The existence of God:A precluded argument exists in the fact that approx 40 individuals over the period of 1500 years wrote the generally ‘coherent and sufficiently supported in critical analysis’ Old and New Testament. The Scriptures tell a unified Salvation Story a)it is : Historical writings of the human search for God b)it is : Recordings of human experiences with God and c)it is : God’s revelations to humanity intended to be a guide to a life of faith and salvationThe reciprocated glory of God is revealed as God discloses Himself by His Word (authoritative, reliable and relevant) the primary source of God’s revelation of Himself and His glory in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ .God discloses Himself i) in dreams ii) by prophets and seers iii) in mighty acts iv) in the progression of history v) in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ the Son of God. Almighty God discloses Revelations about Himself so that: • Humanity would be thoroughly equipped for ‘every good work’ :2 Tim 3:16,17 B: Creation resounds God’s praise. Creation itself is an unveiling, a disclosure by God of His Power and Wisdom Ps 19:1-6;Rom 1:18-20 C: God meets our hearts and minds in every page of His Word guiding by God the Holy Spirit what must be learnt. The Word of God , a personal message from God to us, can be understood and experienced so that humanity would be transformed in relation to Him. Almighty God bless you.Jennifer

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 18, 2012 at 12:49 PM (Answer #51)

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In reply to post 49: The answer to the question can one prove the “Existence of God”, the answer is YES and NO – depends how one looks at it.

If one want to prove it through documents like Scriptures the answer is YES in Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

If it is to be proved through corroboration and rationale, the documentary “The Cell Episode 3 The Spark of Life (BBC)” provides it by showing that "identical basic life cells" exist on the Earth and elsewhere in the universe, and it can be concluded to be the creation of same entity – The God.

However, if someone insists that “I must see Him to believe”, well in that case I would say, “Have an eye to perceive Him.” The whole universe is a demonstration of His existence but a demonstrative evidence to make Him physically appear cannot be provided in this world and in that case the answer is a big NO.

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just-s | Student, Grade 11 | Valedictorian

Posted February 19, 2012 at 12:28 AM (Answer #52)

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i dont think we should ever doubt the existence of God! because if it werent for God the almighty we would not have been living.  God,the one that created this very same world in which we live in. so therefore we should always be thanking God and praise Him for all of the bounties that He has bestowed upon us!

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 19, 2012 at 8:22 AM (Answer #53)

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In reply to post 49: The answer to the question can one prove the “Existence of God”, the answer is YES and NO – depends how one looks at it.

If one want to prove it through documents like Scriptures the answer is YES in Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

If it is to be proved through corroboration and rationale, the documentary “The Cell Episode 3 The Spark of Life (BBC)” provides it by showing that "identical basic life cells" exist on the Earth and elsewhere in the universe, and it can be concluded to be the creation of same entity – The God.

However, if someone insists that “I must see Him to believe”, well in that case I would say, “Have an eye to perceive Him.” The whole universe is a demonstration of His existence but a demonstrative evidence to make Him physically appear cannot be provided in this world and in that case the answer is a big NO.

If one wants to prove it through documents like Scriptures the answer is YES [God does exist] in Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. - Najm

Proving God exists by quoting the Bible (or Koran, etc) is the same as proving Elves exist by quoting The Lord of The Rings. Scriptures are not proof of God. One need only check your posts claiming Islamic scriptures are pure and holy vs. other posts claiming Biblical scriptures are pure and holy.

The testimony of believers, or their books, is not and never shall be proof of God, because you all contradict each other.

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 19, 2012 at 12:56 PM (Answer #54)

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The Scriptures are for the believers only for others, no doubt, so leave it to them.

However, post 51 has two other opinions. May I have your comments Frizzyperm, please.

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 19, 2012 at 4:32 PM (Answer #55)

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“The Cell Episode 3 The Spark of Life” provides it [proof] by showing that "identical basic life cells" exist on the Earth and elsewhere in the universe, and it can be concluded to be the creation of same entity, God. - Najm

Umm... the documentary most certainly did NOT show that cells exist elsewhere in the universe. Besides which... even if evolution has occurred on other planets (which I believe is almost certainly true), this does not prove there is a God. Life evolving on this planet does not prove there is a God, nor would life evolving on other planets, because you don't need a God for life to evolve. Evolution can create complex organisms through simple processes without the need for a designer.

However, if someone insists that “I must see Him to believe”, well in that case I would say, “Have an eye to perceive Him.” The whole universe is a demonstration of His existence...

This is a classic appeal for bias... You will only see God if you first assume he exists. As soon as you assume he exists, hey presto, you will see ''God'' everywhere. This is the very opposite of proof and reason. It is simply saying, 'first you must believe and then you will see.'

Sorry, Najm, but we only need to look at conspiracy theorists to know that if you adopt an unproved belief before you assess the facts (eg. a conspiracy theory) then you will find evidence for your belief everywhere you look.

There is simply no evidence for God.

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ninsan97 | Student, Grade 11 | eNoter

Posted February 20, 2012 at 1:35 AM (Answer #56)

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in reply to #53,

scriptures can prove that god exists and it is proved by the quran. the Quran is Gods word and the Quran gives challenges to anyone who thinks otherwise, in surah al-isra chapter 17 verse 88:

“Say : “If mankind and the Jinns gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants.”

in surah hud chapter 11 verse 13:

Or do they say, “He invented it?” Say, “Then bring ten Surahs like it that have been invented and call upon (for assistance) whoever you can besides Allah, if you should be truthful.”

these all challenges by God to people who think that the Quran is not Gods word and so therefore God must exist. there are many proofs in the Quran, these are just a few.

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 20, 2012 at 6:06 AM (Answer #57)

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in reply to #53,

scriptures can prove that god exists and it is proved by the quran. the Quran is Gods word and the Quran gives challenges to anyone who thinks otherwise, in surah al-isra chapter 17 verse 88:

“Say : “If mankind and the Jinns gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants.”

in surah hud chapter 11 verse 13:

Or do they say, “He invented it?” Say, “Then bring ten Surahs like it that have been invented and call upon (for assistance) whoever you can besides Allah, if you should be truthful.”

these all challenges by God to people who think that the Quran is not Gods word and so therefore God must exist. there are many proofs in the Quran, these are just a few.

So, the Koran says that the Koran is perfect. The Koran says that there is no other book as perfect as the Koran.

Sorry, but if you can't see why that isn't satisfactory evidence, then I am not going to be able to show you.

Do you want 'ten Surahs like it'? How about The Bible?

 

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katieannoakley | Student, Grade 9 | eNoter

Posted February 20, 2012 at 6:28 AM (Answer #58)

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First of all you don't need PROOF! There is no scientific way to know that he is there you just have to believe that he is there.  Second of all it all depends on what you believe in.  People believe different things but honestly there is NO way of knowing if there is actually a God.  Scientists don't know everything here ppl.

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 20, 2012 at 8:38 AM (Answer #59)

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First of all you don't need PROOF! There is no scientific way to know that he is there you just have to believe that he is there.  Second of all it all depends on what you believe in.  People believe different things but honestly there is NO way of knowing if there is actually a God.  Scientists don't know everything here ppl.

People believe different things but honestly there is NO way of knowing if there is actually a God. - katieannieoakley

So why believe in something if you have no idea it is real?

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 20, 2012 at 12:01 PM (Answer #60)

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In reply to post 59:

Do you want 'ten Surahs like it'? How about The Bible? - Frizzyperm

Bible! Yes. The one that is the words of God - The Original One, revealed on to His prophets from time to time.

And by the way, what is being proved by quoting Bible? These are the words of God given to His prophets long ago and such it does not qualify the challenge. To quote Bible is like proving the existence of God, and you have been successful in it - Congratulations Frizzyperm!

The words of the existing versions of Bible are written by various people and the comments on them are given in the following links for your consumption only. I do not like to reproduce the same here as these may hurt the followers of The Bible.

http://lost-history.com/authors.php

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/history-of-the-bible.htm

http://creation.com/genesis-bible-authors-believed-it-to-be-history

On the contrary, Koran is unaltered, and is present in its original words since it was revealed by God on to the prophet Mohammad.

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 20, 2012 at 1:26 PM (Answer #62)

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In reply to post 55:

Evolution can create complex organisms through simple processes without the need for a designer. – Frizzyperm

And evolution needs the basic building blocks we know not yet what they are. Made up of still not fully known particles and probably waves too – not sure! The simplest of these make the huge burning stars, and combined with others - planets and various life forms eventually turning in to galaxies and so on, moving in complete harmony in this Universe. And we know not the Universe as it is today as what we see today is a millions & billions of years old story.

All by evolution, by itself in a random fashion. Also evolving in to most complex life forms like humans - including us the debaters who come up with such discussions. No designer, no creator involved. But surely made up of those fascinating tiny building blocks – we don’t know where they came from.

Amazing - Truly Amazing!

But someone is there who made these building blocks in the first place.

He is the God,

My Lord,

The Creator of all these building blocks,

The Ever-Living.

He doesn’t need anyone to believe in Him. He is there - The one, The Unique.

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 20, 2012 at 7:12 PM (Answer #63)

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In reply to post 59:

Do you want 'ten Surahs like it'? How about The Bible? - Frizzyperm

Bible! Yes. The one that is the words of God - The Original One, revealed on to His prophets from time to time.

And by the way, what is being proved by quoting Bible? These are the words of God given to His prophets long ago and such it does not qualify the challenge. To quote Bible is like proving the existence of God, and you have been successful in it - Congratulations Frizzyperm!

The words of the existing versions of Bible are written by various people and the comments on them are given in the following links for your consumption only. I do not like to reproduce the same here as these may hurt the followers of The Bible.

http://lost-history.com/authors.php

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/history-of-the-bible.htm

http://creation.com/genesis-bible-authors-believed-it-to-be-history

On the contrary, Koran is unaltered, and is present in its original words since it was revealed by God on to the prophet Mohammad.

1) The Koran demands anyone show a text equal to its quality.

2) So I suggested The Bible.

3) You cheerfully produced page after page which show why the Bible is not perfect.

To quote Bible is like proving the existence of God, and you have been successful in it - Congratulations Frizzyperm! - Najm

Slow down, Tiger. I'm afraid I offered you The Bible as a comparison to The Koran knowing that you would say, "No! Hah! The Bible is NOT perfect." As an atheist, I find it sad that Christians will happily highlight errors in the Koran, then ignore errors in the Bible, while Muslims will happily highlight errors in the Bible, but ignore errors in the Koran.

You both use logic to prove inconsistencies in each-other's books, but then reject the same logic when it is applied to your book. It is, as I said, sad and very, very human.

There is no holy book written by God. Do you really think that the 'creator of the multi-verse' couldn't devise a better system of laws and rules than the primitive tribal bullying laid out in the Koran? Do you really believe that the God who created the stars and the planets, trees and DNA, blackholes, quarks and tides; this God couldn't think of a more sophisticated legal system than stoning?

You can see the problems in The Bible because you don't “have an eye to perceive it.” But you approach the Koran with unquestioning eyes so you cannot see how it, and The Bible are equally flawed.

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ninsan97 | Student, Grade 11 | eNoter

Posted February 20, 2012 at 11:53 PM (Answer #64)

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In reply to #57

Yes that is what i am trying to say, that the quran is perfect. the Bible cannot be the word of God and neither can it match the perfection of the Quran because it had soo many contradictions in it.

in genesis 1:14-19 we are told that God made two great lights to govern the day and the night. The Holy Bible is wrong to call the moon a great light, albeit a lesser light, since the moon has no light of its own. there are plenty more mistakes in the Bible.  

the Quran, on the other hand, have no mistakes or contradictions and if have any doubt then please tell me some i would love to know.

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 23, 2012 at 11:55 AM (Answer #65)

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In response to post 63:

There is no holy book written by God. Do you really think that the 'creator of the multi-verse' couldn't devise a better system of laws and rules than the primitive tribal bullying laid out in the Koran? Do you really believe that … this God couldn't think of a more sophisticated legal system than stoning? - Frizzyperm

  1. The language of whole passage confirms that the God exists but He did not write Koran.
  2. Koran does not reaffirm the “primitive tribal bullying” but provides respect to women, social justice, law of inheritance, condemns slavery and so on.
  3. You cannot produce a single verse in Koran regarding “stoning”.
  4. The other punitive measures like amputation or killing are the deterrents. You can compare the crime rates in the civilized world and Saudi Arabia where these are implemented. Why the doctors go for imputation in case of cancer and gangrene – is it savagery? No! To save life - here they are to save the society from the brutality of the criminals.
  5. Had it been so faulty, the name of Mohammad, spelled as “Mahomet”, would not have been included in the Fresco titled “Justice, A Hemicycle of Law Givers” installed in the Great Hall of Lincolns Inn, London – One of the oldest Law Schools.

 Reason does not work against prejudice and jealousy.

I believe in God and I am thankful to Him for blessing me with the wisdom to be so - no matter whatever someone calls it.

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 23, 2012 at 5:35 PM (Answer #66)

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Koran does not reaffirm “primitive tribal bullying” but provides respect to women, social justice... - Najm

If I hear one more muslim man tell me their religion respects women then I'm going to scream. Islam does not respect women, Najm. The Koran specifically deatils how a husband should beat his wife. In Islamic society women are the property of men. You call it 'respect' to make it look civilised, but Islamic society is 300 years behind the West regarding women. And throwing battery acid in little girls' faces because they go to school is an extreme example of a society that has no tolerance for women's independance.

You compared Saudi Arabia favorably to Western Countries because it has low crime. Really? Well, they have very low crime in North Korea too. And in Saudi Arabia women are not allowed out of the house without a male escort and a head-to-toe black bag over them. Don't you DARE call that respectful. It is tyranny.

In 2008, some Saudi women launched a petition “My Guardian Knows What’s Best for Me," which gathered over 5,000 signatures. The petition requested punishment for activists demanding "equality between men and women, [and] mingling between men and women in mixed environments".

This oppression of women in traditional Islamic society is so strong that many have become institutionalsied and have absolutely no sense of self-worth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

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ninsan97 | Student, Grade 11 | eNoter

Posted February 24, 2012 at 1:23 AM (Answer #67)

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Islam does by no mean degrade women, on the contrary its gives respect and protects women. no where in the quran is there a single quote which degrades women or says anything about throwing battery acid at them so please stop making things up. you cannot judge islam by the people that follow it. do not look at saudi arabia as an example of what islam is, read and understand the Quran and the hadeeth. 

Please could you listen to Dr Zakir Naiks talk on 'womens rights in islam' and you will be able to understand more about how islam upgrades the women and respects them and not what are you talking about.

As a muslim i feel the hijab is great as it keeps us modest and protects all women.  

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 24, 2012 at 4:59 AM (Answer #68)

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You cannot judge Islam by the people that follow it. - Ninsan97

Yes, you can, Ninsan. It is important that we should. In fact, we must judge a religion by its followers. Jains don't do the crazy things Muslim do. Neither do Buddhists. "The more extreme a Buddhist is, the less you need to worry about them." You cannot say that about Islam (or Christianity).

Muslims claim that all the brutality that is committed in Islam's name is not Islam's responsibility. Sorry, but you are 100%, dead wrong. Islam creates many brutal extremists, that is Islam's responsibility. The extremists reflect on the 'perfect' teachings of Islam. Why does a perfect book produce so many violent followers?

Nowhere in the quran is there a single quote which degrades women - ninsan97

Really? The Koran, verse 34 of Surah an-Nisa

"Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them.

The Koran gives men domination over women and allows violence to maintain it. Domestic violence in Islamic countries is widespread and it's totally taboo to speak about it. Perhaps you should look into this before you say your religion protects you. Islam protects men, and only men.

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ninsan97 | Student, Grade 11 | eNoter

Posted February 24, 2012 at 5:42 AM (Answer #69)

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well not really because God gave everyone free will and they will do what they want but he has also sent down the Quran as a guide for all mankind so that is what muslims should follow. true islam is what the Quran and the hadeeth says. many muslims read the Quran but do not understand it and take it out of context just like you have.

surah al-Nisa verse 34 is what you have quoted but you have mis read it as if you read the arabic which is the language that the Quran was revealed in the word used does not mean to beat them but to hit them lightly with something like a toothbrush and it should not be on the face. the circumstances should also be understood: if a women is disobedient towards Allah, for example does not pray or wear the hijab then that is something realy wrong and it is the duty for the husband to guid his wife on the right path.

the Prophet never hit his wives and said that who ever did hit or use violence against their wives ''are not the best of you, by God!''

perhaps you should look into this more and understand the Quran instead of just quoting the english translation. Islam has give rights to both men and women.

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pinkyandthebrain | Student, Grade 11 | eNotes Newbie

Posted February 24, 2012 at 10:47 AM (Answer #70)

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I'm most likely way out of my legue here, being a student of wiccan religion and under the age of 18, but religion is always a fun topic to debate for me. What I would like to point out is that not only are there "reasons" or "signs" of the existence of a God, there are also observations to the contrary. Also I have a previously rhetorical question that i'd like an opinion/answer to: If God created the world and man, gave us free will and the ability to grow and gain intellect, what is the point in our worship of him when he has/does very little to impact our lives? This does not include "miracles" or natural phenomenon that people construe as "God's wrath". I am legitly curious as to why we were created if not for a similarity to a child's science project. There are only so many variables god can add when we have the ability to think and choose for ourselves.

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 24, 2012 at 11:52 AM (Answer #71)

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Reply to post 66 & 68.

ninsan, being a woman, has given good account of your question regarding beating of women in 67 & 69.

God demands complete obedience to Him and so do all other manmade laws and constitutions. Violators of constitution are traitors in all societies irrespective of their gender. Truthfulness and Honesty are prerequisites to enter the domain of Islam. All Muslims are required to make commitment that they will obey no one but God and follow the ways of Mohammad.

According to Koran there is NO compulsion to become a Muslim. Had Islam been brutal in its teachings, Yvonne Ridley, the British journalist captured by Taliban would not have embraced Islam.

The Qur'an, she says describing the holy book of Islam, is a "magna carta for women"…When comparing her treatment to female prisoners' held in American custody, such as Aafia Siddiqui, she said that in Taliban's custody she was given her full privacy as a woman, and was handed the key to the door of her cell to lock from the inside.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvonne_Ridley

You call it brutal and against human liberties Frizzyperm, and Guantanamo Bay prison, killing of innocent in Iraq, Afghanistan and Drone attacks etc. are all civilized acts. Gay marriages are being legalised in the neme of human liberty. I tend to think you are right as an advocate of evolution. Humans are evolving in to apes thru negative genetic mutation. Even apes don't do all this.

Please have a heart.

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 24, 2012 at 6:26 PM (Answer #72)

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well not really because God gave everyone free will and they will do what they want but he has also sent down the Quran as a guide for all mankind so that is what muslims should follow. true islam is what the Quran and the hadeeth says. many muslims read the Quran but do not understand it and take it out of context just like you have.

surah al-Nisa verse 34 is what you have quoted but you have mis read it as if you read the arabic which is the language that the Quran was revealed in the word used does not mean to beat them but to hit them lightly with something like a toothbrush and it should not be on the face. the circumstances should also be understood: if a women is disobedient towards Allah, for example does not pray or wear the hijab then that is something realy wrong and it is the duty for the husband to guid his wife on the right path.

the Prophet never hit his wives and said that who ever did hit or use violence against their wives ''are not the best of you, by God!''

perhaps you should look into this more and understand the Quran instead of just quoting the english translation. Islam has give rights to both men and women.

The standard reply to any objection to the Koran by a non-muslim is always, "oh you don't understand Arabic, Arabic is imposible to translate. Arabic is superior to all other languages and can't be translated into inferior languages."

This claim borders on racism in my opinion. And it is always totally impossible to make a muslim look clearly at the problem with koranic texts. They just will not. I have debated with many muslims online and I find the level of indoctrination frightening.

Christianity and Islam and Judaism are all rooted in primitive agricultural tribal communities. They all treat women as property. Ninsan, the fact that you support the system which forces you to be a second-class citizen does not convince me that the system is acceptable.

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 24, 2012 at 6:45 PM (Answer #73)

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God demands complete obedience to Him and so do all other manmade laws and constitutions. Violators of constitution are traitors in all societies irrespective of their gender. Truthfulness and Honesty are prerequisites to enter the domain of Islam. All Muslims are required to make commitment that they will obey no one but God and follow the ways of Mohammad. -  Najm

That is a very, very scary proclamation, Najm. It catches the total intolerant supremacy of the Islamic religion. It expresses very eloquently how hungry for absolute social control Mohammed was and how angry Islam is. Najm, God did not demand complete control... Mohammed did! God did not write the Koran... Mohammed did! God did not make men superior to women... Mohammed did! And Mohammed was just an uneducated, illiterate man who liked being ruler and telling everyone what to do.

Najm, your book is just an old book, written by a frustrated old man who was trying to impose his supreme edicts. It is so obvious to anyone who has not been drowned in its dogma that Islam is the same as all the other monotheistic religions... intolerant, expansionist, monocultural and self-authorised to bully everyone else into submission.

Islam is currently violently struggling for control in 50 different countries around the world and you sit there constantly repeating your mantra that 'Islam is a tolerant religion of peace'.

No, it isn't, Najm. It really isn't.

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bhawanipur | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 24, 2012 at 8:31 PM (Answer #74)

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For me frizzyperm and najm are equally respected for their devotion in studying the scriptures in depth. But the thing is that G-O-D need not be proved. Every alphabet of it is evident in the world. However, its existence can, as I said, be only realized by one but not by knowledge. His existence can be felt everywhere and in every object in the material world and in the universe by a person. Only thing he needs not the sight of eyes but the sight of mind. This is my view and there by I am not trying to prove the existence of God. To me both of you are reincarnation of God.

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ninsan97 | Student, Grade 11 | eNoter

Posted February 24, 2012 at 8:56 PM (Answer #75)

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in reply to #72

well im not saying arabic is hard to understand or it is superior to any other lanuage. it is a language like anyother lanuage that if you learn you will understand it. same with all ther langauges, if you dont understand bangali then you can take any english translation and it will be some what right but not it may not be exactly what it means.

you are not undertstanding islam and i feel you do not want to which is fine but that doesnt give you the right to put false accusations on it. islam treats everyone fairly which is proved by the Quran. islam has given women the respect that they deserve which you will not understand as you do not even want to understand the Quran properly.

 if there are any other quotes from the Quran which you feel degrades women then please tell me because i feel the last one you quoted was clearly misunderstood by you. i dont just want debate with you but i want to know why you put false accusations on islam.

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 25, 2012 at 3:09 AM (Answer #76)

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In reply to 73.

It’s hard to find a parallel to your prejudice against Islam & other Devine religions where the followers are required to believe in God. Had all these books not been from God but by the prophets then there would not have been verses like:

“O prophet! Why dost thou prohibit (thyself) that which God has made lawful to thee, seeking to satisfy thy wives? And God is your Protector.” (Koran 1:66)

“…And thou wast concealing in thy mind what God was going to disclose and thou wast afraid of the people, And it is more righteous that thou shouldst be afraid of God...” (Koran 33:37)

The eloquence shows that these are from God to Mohammad and not by Mohammad.

God did not demand complete control… Mohammed did! –Frizzyperm

Whereas God establishes a master-servant relationship, not Mohammad as under:

I have only created the jinn and the mankind, that they should serve Me. (Koran 51:56)

My mantra will remain the same being a believer of God - my Creator, my Master that Islam is a tolerant religion of peace and my Master guides me so but you will believe not. In this situation, when you are obsessed with evolution and have made your mind, brain and science your Master, I am left not but to say,

“O ye who disbelieve!

I worship not that which ye worship.

Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.

Neither am I a worshipper of what you worship.

Nor (again) are you worshippers of what I worship.

For you is your judgment and for me is mine.”

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 25, 2012 at 12:13 PM (Answer #77)

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In response to post 74:

To me both of you are reincarnation of God. - Bhawanipur

I would say I don’t believe in reincarnation in this world but surely in the life after.

And would add that Frizzyperm and I are the members of the two distinct groups of the non-believers and the believers respectively, and all the rest who do not belong to any of these are the undecided ones, in-between, neither here nor there.

Wouldn’t it be a great idea to decide for the best – a rewarding and everlasting life as God says:

And there are those who believe and do good deeds,

We shall soon cause them to enter gardens beneath which flow rivers,

Abiding therein all the time,

A promise from God which is certain;

And who is more truthful than God in respect of (His) word. (Koran 4:122)

The wise may think  - and decide!

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jenniferjcthompson | High School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 25, 2012 at 9:33 PM (Answer #78)

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Good day all I am always reminded of the fact that individual identity and especially the tacit aspects (known only to the individual) defines the sterngth of argument persuaded,ridiculed or rebuked. In addition faith and faith practices or beliefs allow these assurances of individual knowledge or wisdom to be affirmed clearly i.e. overtly or covertly.Humility is a trait that seldom allows detectable opportunities for observation and analysis.Faiths practiced in humility with devotion is truly fathomed and known when relations established intend wilfully to explore the essences of individual faith.Most known beliefs, religions or faiths or theologies require a 'dialogue of enfolding'.Holiness guides 'dialogues of interpretation' that acquire/gain wisdom in interpretation beneficial to all.Almighty God guides holiness, sanctifies to holiness and consecrates unto Himself such holiness as life because He is Holy, He is God and He is Life.The Lord bless you,Jennifer

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 26, 2012 at 8:20 AM (Answer #79)

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In response to post 74:

To me both of you are reincarnation of God. - Bhawanipur

I would say I don’t believe in reincarnation in this world but surely in the life after.

And would add that Frizzyperm and I are the members of the two distinct groups of the non-believers and the believers respectively, and all the rest who do not belong to any of these are the undecided ones, in-between, neither here nor there.

Wouldn’t it be a great idea to decide for the best – a rewarding and everlasting life as God says:

And there are those who believe and do good deeds,

We shall soon cause them to enter gardens beneath which flow rivers,

Abiding therein all the time,

A promise from God which is certain;

And who is more truthful than God in respect of (His) word. (Koran 4:122)

The wise may think  - and decide!

Najm, we have reached the point in our discussion where I feel we should clarify our positions. I have said previously that I have debated many Muslims in the past and I think I have identified a major area for confusion between Muslims and non-Muslims. The confusion is this...

  • You believe (I think) that Islam is represented by the words of the Koran.
  • I believe that Islam is represented by the actions of Muslims.

And, in order to address this confusion, I have a question; If the Koran is the absolutely perfect message of God, why are there so many misguided, violent Muslims?

We have already discussed that God, apparently, has the power to create rainbows and galaxies, electrons in their orbits, chaos theory, the chemical table of elements, gravity, quantum physics and all the other stupendously impressive creations of nature. So, if your God is a designer of such awesome and subtle power, why does his perfect guidebook for mankind fail to inspire universal peace in its followers? Is the Koran a perfect or not?

And, please, don't just brush me off with the appeal to 'freewill'. If God wanted to write the perfect book for human happiness, why didn't he write a book that clearly inspires all its readers to be good? He has made the universe and everything in it, he is all-powerful. So why does God's perfect book mis-direct so many people to violence? It makes no sense to me.

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 27, 2012 at 2:49 AM (Answer #80)

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You are absolutely right Frizzyperm. I believe that Islam is represented by the words of Koran and have raised a very pertinent question:

If the Koran is the absolutely perfect message of God, why are there so many misguided, violent Muslims?

All other questions raised by you are corollaries of this basic question. One may give a single sentence answer that we, the so called Muslims, don’t know Koran, don’t follow Koran and bring bad name to Islam. But this gives rise to the obvious question – why?

The reasons are many but some basic ones are being listed below:

  1. Like all other major religions, the majority of us are Muslims by succession, having been born to parents who called themselves Muslims, with meager or no knowledge about their religion and what God requires us to be. Only few of us make a conscious effort to know that. The same is true for other religions too.
  2. A large number of the community prayer leaders and preacher delivering talk on Friday congregations do not have good knowledge of Koran in the developing and under-developed Muslim States.
  3. The poverty and low literacy rate also contributes to this. They can be misguided and persuaded to violence in the name of martyrdom to get rid of poverty.
  4. Disregard of the west to the Muslim faith, about which Muslims are very sensitive.

With this state of Muslims awareness about Islam and the attitude of west towards muslim sentiment, it would not be right to judge Islam by actions of Muslims.

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 27, 2012 at 2:58 AM (Answer #81)

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PS: 

Here is true incidence regarding a Muslim boy whose family was killed in a Drone attack in the tribal area of Pakistan and he was left alone. I hope it will provide you with answers to most of your questions in post 79 in the light of reasons given in my post #80.

The boy’s intentions of suicide bombing were being justified by a Muslim religious scholar on the grounds that the boy was left with nothing in his life. The talk was unbearable for me and I asked the scholar had he not read the Koran? This could have caused loss of many innocent lives which is against Koran. It took me a long time to persuade him to change his stance. What could one expect from the Muslims with meager knowledge living in an environment of foreign oppression?

There is nothing wrong with Koran, the problem is with the followers who claim to be Muslims and don't follow Koran. Generally the new converts are those who have opted for Islam consciously and represent Muslims in a better way.

In spite of that, there is a need for respecting each other’s sentiment and setting aside our egos for global peace and harmony.

If we want to live our way, we must learn to let others live their way.

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just-s | Student, Grade 11 | Valedictorian

Posted March 3, 2012 at 1:10 AM (Answer #82)

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islaam is a religion of peace and justice. just as you should not judge a book by its cover, so to you should not judge a religion by its followers . if Some followers of islaam does not follow properly then you cannot blame the religion but the people. we as the women in islaam feel protected when we wear the hijaab. the hijaab is not for anyone else's good but rather for our own good.

 the Quraan is a guide for all of mankind, but some choose to follow while others dont. it happens in all religions, you will get some people who follow properly and then you get those who choose what they want to  follow and when they want to follow.

Allah is all-seeing, all-knowing...he has told us in the quraan so many things which have already happened and some are still to happen.

he has warned us of the floods and natural disasters that will destroy many things/places for various reasons. He has warned us about so many things 1400 years ago and scientists are only finding out about those things now. i would advise one to read the quraan and understand it.many say that the Quraan has been altered, the quraan is STILL in its original form and has not been altered in any way. no-one will ever be able to alter it.

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted March 5, 2012 at 11:47 AM (Answer #83)

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Corrigendum - Post 76

The reference of the first verse translation is inadvertantly misprinted as Koran 1:66.

The correct reference is Koran 66:1

The verse translation is being reproduced with correct reference as under:

“O prophet! Why dost thou prohibit (thyself) that which God has made lawful to thee, seeking to satisfy thy wives? And God is your Protector.” (Koran 66:1)

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dralgarza | College Teacher | eNotes Newbie

Posted March 6, 2012 at 1:53 PM (Answer #85)

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None of these three seems to be any real sort of proof.  I agree with the basic idea of Post #3.  I would add to that the argument that, if everything must be the result of an earlier cause, then we have to wonder what caused God.  I don't think that it's proof to say "everything came from something else UNTIL WE GET TO GOD."

We can't prove the existence of God.  It's something we have to take on faith or on the evidence of our own emotions.

Hello, I would have to say that once you get to God then you have to understand that the question of what caused God would be irrelevant at that point. We would have to submit to the creator no matter if he had a beginning or not.

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brittany98 | Student | eNotes Newbie

Posted March 7, 2012 at 11:55 AM (Answer #86)

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I agree with Stolperia, i don't need proof either. I am also a believer. I think the idea of the "Big Bang" is total bull because when you sit there and think about it, it even sounds ridiculous. And they idea on how we were created sounds even more unreal. I believe God has a purpose for everyone, and everyone was created perfectly in Gods eyes. Everyone has the right to there own opinion on God, but i stand up and say that for the Crusaders, proof is not necessary.

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wanderista | Student, Grade 11 | Valedictorian

Posted March 13, 2012 at 7:23 PM (Answer #87)

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I don't believe in a higher existance, nor do I like the theory of the Big Bang. Call me immature, but I don't really care how we got here, but we are here. And while we are here, we should make the most of it by living our lives to the fullest, and achieving our personal goals and desires.

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zaraqkhan142 | Student, Undergraduate | eNoter

Posted March 16, 2012 at 7:18 AM (Answer #88)

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i just wanna say that there is only one god ALLAH.and as far as the proof is concerned let me give u an example,i am sure each of you would support a team in any kind of sports.have you ever experienced a situation when your team is surely losing and there is a negligable chance of your team to win the match but still you wait for the final moment,still you believe that a miracle could win the match.my question is from whom are u expecting the miracle,surely not from players and now surely u knw deep inside that there is someone who is almighty and perfect.hope my post will help those who dont believe.dont stray from the right path plz

 

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noor-ul-nida | Student, Undergraduate | Honors

Posted March 16, 2012 at 11:13 PM (Answer #89)

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whenever we think about evolution of this world, it ultimately takes us to a point where we think "from where it came?" so no one but God created it.

 

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted March 17, 2012 at 8:06 AM (Answer #91)

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I agree with Stolperia, i don't need proof either. I am also a believer. I think the idea of the "Big Bang" is total bull because when you sit there and think about it, it even sounds ridiculous. And they idea on how we were created sounds even more unreal. I believe God has a purpose for everyone, and everyone was created perfectly in Gods eyes. Everyone has the right to there own opinion on God, but i stand up and say that for the Crusaders, proof is not necessary.

"but i stand up and say that for the Crusaders, proof is not necessary." brittany98

Excuse me, proof is necessary. It is very necessary. Unless you want to be an extremist.

And just because you do not have the adequate level of education to understand the big bang does not mean you can just flip it off and say, "meh, it sounds stoopid to me." You are only a school-girl and you know absolutely zero about this subject. BUT there are very intelligent, very experienced, very professional people who have studied the origins of the universe for all their lives. Your opinion is not worth 1c compared to their opinion and your comments are childish.

There is plenty of EVIDENCE for the big bang, the theory is not complete and it is a cutting edge subject, but you do not have any authority to just ignore the opinion of people who know ten thousand times more than you about this subject.

(P.S. The original Crusaders were a smelly bunch of murderous, ignorant, barbarian hooligans who smashed up an advanced civilisation because they believed their God wanted them to (without any proof))

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted March 17, 2012 at 2:57 PM (Answer #92)

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The creation of universe is indicated at many places in Quran like 6:101, 20:30-33, 36:81-82 and 51:47.

God says:

Originator of the heavens and earth,...

And he made all things,

And all things He knows. (Quran 6:101)

and

Do not they who choose to disbelief see that the heaven and the earth were one bound together,

We then opened them out both!

And out of water we have made all things alive.

Will they not then believe? (Quran 21:30)

And We have placed mountains in the Earth,

Lest it should tilt over with them,

And we have placed therein open ways that they may be guided.

And we have made the space above as a strong vault,

But they turn aside from its signs.

And it is He who has made the night and the day and the sun and the moon,

All floating in their respective orbits. (Quran 21:30-33)

and

And the heaven We created with might,

And indeed We are (its) expander. (Quran 51:47)

Quran being a message for the mankind for all times to come is revealing itself as the human knowledge expands.

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted March 18, 2012 at 9:10 AM (Answer #93)

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Najm, endlessly taking quotes from a book that was spoken to a scribe 1600+ years ago is never going to convince anyone except your fellow believers. It is just an old book, like the bible or the hindu texts. It is not 'magic'. It does not 'trump' reason.

Your attempts at reverse engineering are futile. Your book does not conform to modern science, unless you can prove scientifically that the sun sets in a muddy pool of water.

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted March 18, 2012 at 10:48 AM (Answer #94)

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Frizzyperm, everyone knows that science is the half-truth and a continuous quest for the whole truth. There are hardly any scientific theory that has stood to the test of the time but was proved defective and subsequently changed. I do not find it rational to make science, the defective half-truth, a benchmark for judging the whole truth - Quran.

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted March 19, 2012 at 8:12 AM (Answer #95)

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Frizzyperm, everyone knows that science is the half-truth and a continuous quest for the whole truth. There are hardly any scientific theory that has stood to the test of the time but was proved defective and subsequently changed. I do not find it rational to make science, the defective half-truth, a benchmark for judging the whole truth - Quran.

"There are hardly any scientific theory that has stood to the test of the time."

That's called progress, Najm. If science knew everything, it would stop. But it is extremely simple and easy to prove that scientific knowledge is improving and convergent. Science sent us to the moon, religion didn't. Science cured many many terrible diseases, religion didn't. Science gave us comfortable lives and labour saving machines, religion didn't. Prayer has not achieved anything in the last 3000 years,  but human reason has. Religion is a very difficult and stubborn enemy of progress which has long since out-run its usefulness.

We are using the internet to send instant messages to each, it is a master-piece of scientific achievement. Please try to respond to this message, instantly, using a message system contained in the Koran, if science is defective half-truth and the koran is 'the whole truth', that should be a simple task.

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted March 19, 2012 at 1:36 PM (Answer #96)

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When did I say Quran is against learning? The first revelation of Quran began with:

Proclaim! (or Read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created

Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:

Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful

He Who taught (the use of) the Pen

Taught man that which he knew not. (Quran 96:5)

Learning and exploration is going by the teachings of Islam. If Muslims, who started the scientific development work in the 8th century (ref. my post 40), have forgotten one of their basic functions today, it is fault of Muslims not of Islam. Even today many Muslims are contributing to this development but some nations don’t like it. Why Iran is being criticized for research in nuclear development? why Iraq was invaded? They never used Nuclear Devices. If research has to be denied, it should be denied to US who has brought misery to the world in name of peace from extermination of human race to use of nuclear weapons, the numbers are incomparable. The opportunities for scientific development should be equal to all to take its benefits.

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | Valedictorian

Posted February 20, 2012 at 12:09 PM (Answer #61)

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In post 60, the post number has been written as 59 instead of 57 inadvertently. Post 60 is in reply to post 57 - Najm

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alilion | Student, Undergraduate | Salutatorian

Posted March 16, 2012 at 11:46 PM (Answer #90)

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God alone created everything..To Him is our final return

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