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Mesopotamia the earliest civilization?How can Mesopotamia be considered the "cradle of...

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truthseekah | (Level 1) Salutatorian

Posted July 18, 2011 at 5:04 AM via web

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Mesopotamia the earliest civilization?

How can Mesopotamia be considered the "cradle of civilization" when there are many intact underwater cities that easily post date this theory?

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pohnpei397 | College Teacher | (Level 3) Distinguished Educator

Posted July 18, 2011 at 5:43 AM (Answer #2)

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It would have been easier to answer this if you provided some examples of these "many" cities that are supposedly in existence.  However, I think that you will find that these sites are not ones that are widely accepted as legitimate by scientists.  For example, you have this "city" off Japan that one man claims is 5,000 years old (not predating Mesopotamian civilization).  His claims are not generally accepted.  I think you will find that other sites are similar.  So far as we know, no civilizations predated Mesopotamian civilization.

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larrygates | College Teacher | (Level 1) Educator Emeritus

Posted July 18, 2011 at 6:53 AM (Answer #3)

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You raise a valid point; and the answer is not easy; but my own supposition is because those other civilizations are not western. The primary reason Mesopotamia is considered the "cradle" of civilization is it is the earliest identifiable relic of that which became Western Civilization. For many years, "world history" was taught as Western Civilization. The Dravidian civilization of India may well predate Mesopotamia; but it has not left an indelible mark on the West as has the latter. I would be interested in hearing the opinions of others who have some scholarly knowledge of the time period.

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litteacher8 | Middle School Teacher | (Level 1) Distinguished Educator

Posted July 18, 2011 at 8:33 AM (Answer #4)

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Sometimes new discoveries take awhile to reach general acceptance.  I am not sure what cities you are talking about.  Where is your evidence?  That might help you get a clearer answer.  It is easy to make suppositions and develop theories.  Unless there is actual archeological evidence, it's hard to chage the general wisdom.

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truthseekah | (Level 1) Salutatorian

Posted July 19, 2011 at 5:41 AM (Answer #5)

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It would have been easier to answer this if you provided some examples of these "many" cities that are supposedly in existence.  However, I think that you will find that these sites are not ones that are widely accepted as legitimate by scientists.  For example, you have this "city" off Japan that one man claims is 5,000 years old (not predating Mesopotamian civilization).  His claims are not generally accepted.  I think you will find that other sites are similar.  So far as we know, no civilizations predated Mesopotamian civilization.

Gulf of Cambay off the western coast of India -"Dwarka" - "Debris recovered from the site - including construction material, pottery, sections of walls, beads, sculpture and human bones and teeth has been carbon dated and found to be nearly 9,500 years old."

Yonaguni megalith structure - "A school of Japanese marine geologists agreed on the outcome. We found that the ruins are at least 6000 years old. It could go back another 4000 years when we consider the length of time before they sunk into the water."

Tiahuanaco, Bolivia - "Most Archeaelogists agree that in the distant past Tiahuanaco was a flourishing port at the edge of the lake [Titicaca], which meant that the water has receded almost 12 miles and has dropped about 800 feet since then. All concur that the lake is shrinking, due mainly to evaporation, since no rivers flow from it."

Between Cuba and Yucatan - "Pyramids and building were captured by Paulina Zelitsky’s equipment in 2000, showing that between Cuba and Yucatan lies a city submerged to more than 600 meters of depth with structures very geometrically cut, passages, tunnels and even temples with diverse symbols that arose in a place where officially human beings never lived."

Also, there are other anomalies such as "Brimini Road" and throughout the Caribbean. There are many other accounts of bronze age cities underwater in the Mediterranean and other places that are unexplained in our history books, but that is another story.

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jillyfish | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted July 21, 2011 at 1:56 AM (Answer #9)

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It would have been easier to answer this if you provided some examples of these "many" cities that are supposedly in existence.  However, I think that you will find that these sites are not ones that are widely accepted as legitimate by scientists.  For example, you have this "city" off Japan that one man claims is 5,000 years old (not predating Mesopotamian civilization).  His claims are not generally accepted.  I think you will find that other sites are similar.  So far as we know, no civilizations predated Mesopotamian civilization.

Gulf of Cambay off the western coast of India -"Dwarka" - "Debris recovered from the site - including construction material, pottery, sections of walls, beads, sculpture and human bones and teeth has been carbon dated and found to be nearly 9,500 years old."

Yonaguni megalith structure - "A school of Japanese marine geologists agreed on the outcome. We found that the ruins are at least 6000 years old. It could go back another 4000 years when we consider the length of time before they sunk into the water."

Tiahuanaco, Bolivia - "Most Archeaelogists agree that in the distant past Tiahuanaco was a flourishing port at the edge of the lake [Titicaca], which meant that the water has receded almost 12 miles and has dropped about 800 feet since then. All concur that the lake is shrinking, due mainly to evaporation, since no rivers flow from it."

Between Cuba and Yucatan - "Pyramids and building were captured by Paulina Zelitsky’s equipment in 2000, showing that between Cuba and Yucatan lies a city submerged to more than 600 meters of depth with structures very geometrically cut, passages, tunnels and even temples with diverse symbols that arose in a place where officially human beings never lived."

Also, there are other anomalies such as "Brimini Road" and throughout the Caribbean. There are many other accounts of bronze age cities underwater in the Mediterranean and other places that are unexplained in our history books, but that is another story.

Here we go then. You offer 4 examples with links...

link 1 The Gulf of Cambay : this link takes us to a ten year old newspaper article. The article is full of 'could be', 'may be', 'might be' etc. Here are the reasons why the claims weren't credible. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_archaeology_in_the_Gulf_of_Cambay

link 2: Yonaguni Megalith Structure : this link takes us to the Enotes discussion page???

link 3 Tiahuanaco, Bolivia : This link takes us to an amateur website which, while discussing Tiahuanaco, claims that the 'current' moon is only 12,000 years old and Tiahuanaco, aka Atlantis, was destroyed when the 'old' moon fell to Earth. Uh-huh. Meanwhile... academic archaeology dates Tiahuanaco from no earlier than 1500PCE...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiwanaku

link 4  between Cuba and Yucatan: this link takes us to a totally 'out there' Creationist end-times website that also makes claims for Noah's Flood, 20th century dinosaurs and ancient nuclear weapons. I'll just quietly look away from that one, I think...

Four claims, none of which show any reason to believe there is anything new, and every reason to believe that your claims come from people whose grasp of reality is extremely tenuous. I suspect that the only 'paradigm shift' which needs to take place is your approach to giving credibility to any old stuff you find on the internet.

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larrygates | College Teacher | (Level 1) Educator Emeritus

Posted July 21, 2011 at 5:47 AM (Answer #11)

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Well said, Frizzyperm. Its a bit much in this day and age to hear the tired old "communist plot," (or whatever type plot) bandied about as an excuse for irresponsibility. Every teacher worth his salt that I know of encourages his students to think outside the box. I hope the day never comes when we punish students for being creative.

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jillyfish | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted July 22, 2011 at 7:50 AM (Answer #21)

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Dear Truthseekah,

  • In post 17 you insisted that you were only being offered 'broad attacks'.
  • So, in post 19 I offered you two very specific questions; because I wish to learn more about your theory.
  • But, you did not refer to them at all in your post number 20, instead you went on to other subjects.
  • You have repeatedly stated that you love questioning and inquiry.
  • You have repeatedly stated that you despise teachers who crush inquiry.
  • So, I will repeat my questions for you... 

I am an inquiring student who wishes to be educated about your theory. You claim that Tiahuanaco is 12,000 years old. You back this claim with a website which states that we can tell Tiahunaco is 12,000 years old because our 'current' moon is only 12,000 years old and it was the 'old' moon which fell to earth and destroyed Tiahuanaco 12,000 years ago. (see link in post 5).

So, I will ask you again...

  1. how do you know the moon is 12,000 years old and where did it come from?
  2. how do you know that there was a previous moon which fell to Earth and destroyed Atlantis. 

  Please directly address these openly inquiring questions to your interesting theory.

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jillyfish | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted July 25, 2011 at 6:15 PM (Answer #26)

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Meanwhile... the academic community has examined the evidence for the claims regarding a pre-Mesopotamian civilisation. There have been very strong concerns about the methods used. For example, the under-water site was investigated using dredging. This is definitely not a professional way to conduct a 'dig'.

Also, there seems to be a distinctly 'political' motive for this research, with the Indian government pushing to the front and making bold, public announcements to establish Indian as the cradle of civilisation, while the scientists wait and see.

Here are some typical objections from archeaologists...

"There are some basic objections which have been raised against the claim that the remains of a 9,500-year-old settlement exist under the sea in the Gulf of Khambat. First, no marine archaeologist has actually gone down and seen the site." Says Shereen Ratnagar, Professor of Archaeology at Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi, and the author of many books on the Harappan civilisation: "There have been no divers, no mapping, no underwater photography in this case. These are the basics of excavating a submarine site. It's a long, tedious process."

My questions are,

  1. Why hasn't this site been examined properly and professionally before claiming it is genuine?
  2. Until it is examined properly, why should anyone believe these unfounded claims?

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1905/19050670.htm

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truthseekah | (Level 1) Salutatorian

Posted August 2, 2011 at 12:09 AM (Answer #38)

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Smithsonian Magazine Article:

Gobekli Tepe: The World’s First Temple?

Predating Stonehenge by 6,000 years, Turkey's stunning Gobekli Tepe upends the conventional view of the rise of civilization

By Andrew Curry

Photographs by Berthold Steinhilber

Smithsonian magazine, November 2008


Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/gobekli-tepe.html#ixzz1TstrTfpy
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johnsanders1989 | Student, Undergraduate | eNotes Newbie

Posted September 13, 2011 at 10:33 AM (Answer #46)

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Mesopotamia the earliest civilization?

How can Mesopotamia be considered the "cradle of civilization" when there are many intact underwater cities that easily post date this theory?

In the subject, Civics and Culture, we learned that Mesopotamia beter known before as Babylon and now Iraq is the very first place that was civilized. The trade and barter first happened there. So, there's no reason to counter this fact. Anyway, have your football irrigation system be manage by visiting their site.

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gopikrishna | High School Teacher | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted September 23, 2011 at 8:58 PM (Answer #47)

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Mesopotamia is the area between the Euphrates and Tigris rivers, north or northwest of the bottleneck at Baghdad, in modern Iraq; it is Al-Jazirah ("The Island") of the Arabs.

South of this lies Babylonia, named after the city of Babylon, the name Mesopotamia has come to be used for the area bounded on the northeast by the Zagros Mountains and on the southwest by the edge of the Arabian Plateau and stretching from the Persian Gulf in the southeast to the spurs of the Anti-Taurus Mountains in the northwest.

Mesopotamia, south of Ar-Ramadi (about 70 miles, or 110 kilometers, west of Baghdad) on the Euphrates and the bend of the Tigris below Samarra' (about 70 miles north-northwest of Baghdad), is flat alluvial land.

agriculture without risk of crop failure, which seems to have begun in the higher rainfall zones and in the hilly borders of Mesopotamia in the 10th millennium BC, began in Mesopotamia itself, the real heart of the civilization, only after artificial irrigation had been invented, bringing water to large stretches of territory through a widely branching network of canals.

Since the ground is extremely fertile and, with irrigation and the necessary drainage, will produce in abundance, southern Mesopotamia became a land of plenty that could support a considerable population.

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