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I think God did not really create the universe. You?this is the most hunting fact that...

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rounaksingh593 | Student, Grade 9 | eNotes Newbie

Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:00 AM via web

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I think God did not really create the universe. You?

this is the most hunting fact that god did not created the universe...

according to the laws of physics we all know that there was nothing before the BIG BANG( formation of the universe )... There was not even space ; time; matter and energy... Now can anyone tell me that in the absence of all these things how does god came in existence and the most amazing question is that did he had time to create the universe? as there was no time and matter before the creation of the earth...  there is no reason behind the big bang so ASKING A QUESTION LIKE " Who Actually Created the universe is as same as asking a stupid question like " Where is the endingpoint or corner of the earth......  AS EARTH HAS NO CORNER....      

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school-help-needed | Student | (Level 1) Honors

Posted May 7, 2012 at 11:34 AM (Answer #2)

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There is no evidence of any god, and how could a god create the universe if the universe basically created itself?

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pohnpei397 | College Teacher | (Level 3) Distinguished Educator

Posted May 7, 2012 at 1:39 PM (Answer #3)

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I think, first of all, that you're wrong on your science.  There had to be matter before the Big Bang.  You can't just have this explosion out of nothing.  

Second, I fail to see how the Big Bang (assuming as I do that this is how the universe truly did start) denies the existence of God.  How did that matter get there in the first place?  Sure, it is somewhat illogical to assume that God put it there, but why is that more logical than to say that the universe just happened to exist?

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rrteacher | College Teacher | (Level 1) Educator Emeritus

Posted May 7, 2012 at 3:01 PM (Answer #4)

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My understanding is that theoretical physicists have posited a singularity that preceded the Big Bang, one in which there was nearly infinite density and gravity. Time, under these conditions, did not exist as we understand it. So in a sense, there really was no "before the Big Bang." What implications this has for theology, I don't really know, but I do know that many theologians, St. Augustine being the most famous, argued that time itself was the creation of God. http://www.iep.utm.edu/augustin/ 

My personal convictions tend (heavily) toward the secular, but I find those who completely deny the possibility of some sort of incomprehensible force that sparked the universe's beginnings as dogmatic as any religious fundamentalist. 

 

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catd1115 | Middle School Teacher | (Level 3) Assistant Educator

Posted May 7, 2012 at 3:08 PM (Answer #5)

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I think that you are missing the idea that science does not preclude religion. One can accept scientific theories of creation (and the other hot topic evolution) without having to not believe in God or some form of creator or greater conciousness. I think that denying any alternative to what you believe is prejudcial. Just as no one wants Religious groups denying access to science, No one should want scientists denying access to religion.

What you or anyone believes is a personal choice. It is hard to be well educated and deny clear science, but that doesn't mean religious belief no longer plays a part in the whole. This topic is way more complex than any single human can find a definitive answer for, so it is more important to come to a reasonable conclusion that is meaningful to you, but also respects those who disagree. You can think someone is wrong, but still respect their right to believe.

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mwalter822 | Teacher | (Level 2) Educator

Posted May 7, 2012 at 5:44 PM (Answer #6)

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Your question gets at the heart of the fact that human beings are not equipped to understand how the universe was created. As far as our ability to think is concerned, space, time and matter are all impossible. Yet they exist. Obviously there is something we don't know and cannot know in this phase of our existence. The hard part it accepting our limitations. I believe that someday we will know these things, but not in this life.

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wannam | High School Teacher | (Level 3) Educator

Posted May 7, 2012 at 7:34 PM (Answer #7)

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That's the thing about science and religion.  Neither can definitely prove or disprove the exist of a deity.  God has no beginning and no end.  He is not controlled by physics, time, matter, or energy.  He is a supernatural being.  We cannot quantify God in the same manner as mere humans.  Consider too that science isn't infallible.  Science does not, cannot not, and never will know everything.  Once, scientists thought that the atom was the smaller particle.  Nothing could ever be smaller.  They were absolutely certain.  Until one day, they realized they were wrong.  The atom was broken open and a whole new group of particles was discovered.  Maybe there was nothing that we can currently recognize or name before the big bang.  Maybe, like subatomic particles, we simply have not discovered it yet.

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loraaa | Student | (Level 2) Valedictorian

Posted May 8, 2012 at 7:01 AM (Answer #8)

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Do you think that the Big Bang happened without God  !!??!!!!

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | (Level 3) Valedictorian

Posted May 8, 2012 at 6:31 PM (Answer #9)

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The first thing to realise is that the pre-conditions for the big bang are not understandable or obvious. They are extremely counter-intuitive. You cannot 'imagine' what it was like before the Universe started. You can only picture it with maths.

'Before the universe' is so unlike 'the universe' that we are not in a position to make any 'logical' assumptions. But you can theoretically get 'something from nothing' according to the boffins in the physics department. However, there are only about ten people in the world able to bend their mind around the fiendishly complex maths, and they haven't finished working on this problem yet. Thumping the table and asserting 'you can't get something from nothing' is only true for our observable 4D space. At a quantum level all kinds of weird little things pop in and out of existence all the time. The truth will not reveal itself using simplistic intuition.

And 'God willed the Universe into being by his word.' is not an answer, it is a completely meaningless, unprovable, pseudo-answer from the dawn of our civilisation. 

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litteacher8 | Middle School Teacher | (Level 1) Distinguished Educator

Posted May 10, 2012 at 5:49 PM (Answer #10)

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Not everything can really be proven.  The problem with this issue is that it is so emotional.  People are debating what they have been taught and raised to believe, sometimes as one of their most deeply held-beliefs.  I strongly feel this is an area where people should respect one another.  I don’t think an exchange of ideas is going to change anyone’s mind.

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drahmad1989 | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted May 23, 2012 at 7:54 PM (Answer #11)

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all laws prove false when we dont get any universal law fit on earlier laws

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drahmad1989 | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted May 23, 2012 at 8:12 PM (Answer #12)

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all laws prove false when we dont get any universal law fit on earlier laws

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pantoniou | Student, Grade 10 | eNotes Newbie

Posted May 26, 2012 at 5:24 PM (Answer #13)

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I think God did not really create the universe. You?

this is the most hunting fact that god did not created the universe...

according to the laws of physics we all know that there was nothing before the BIG BANG( formation of the universe )... There was not even space ; time; matter and energy... Now can anyone tell me that in the absence of all these things how does god came in existence and the most amazing question is that did he had time to create the universe? as there was no time and matter before the creation of the earth...  there is no reason behind the big bang so ASKING A QUESTION LIKE " Who Actually Created the universe is as same as asking a stupid question like " Where is the endingpoint or corner of the earth......  AS EARTH HAS NO CORNER....      

dont forget that the big bang is only a theory therefore, it is not confirmed by scientists yet ... so there is no proof of being true .... also the fact that god created the universe / world in 7 days doesnt have to mean that it is exactly 7 days... i mean some people are saying that each day was a specific period of time... lastly, the question that you refered to is and will be an unanswered question thats why some of the people living in Earth have different religion ... everyone has the right to have a free opinion and no one can tell them what is the right opinion because there are no proofs about anything....

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pantoniou | Student, Grade 10 | eNotes Newbie

Posted May 26, 2012 at 5:30 PM (Answer #14)

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The Big Bang thing is just a theory people so no one can answer this specific question... 

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ammoorah123 | Student, Grade 11 | (Level 2) eNoter

Posted May 30, 2012 at 4:29 PM (Answer #15)

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imagine a ship being steered without a captain going to the right places at the right time....IMPOSSIBLE .........or an object silver on the outside gold on the inside no doors no windows and a creature emerges from it one would say again impossible........the same way a ship can't be steered without a captain shows us that all of this cannot come into existence without a perfect creator ....and the object with no doors refers to the egg....white on the outside yellow on trhe inside...no way in or no way out...but when the egg cracks a beautiful creature emerges from it...how can this be possible without a true creator....my lord your lord the lord of the worlds created all of this! praise be to Allah (God)

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | (Level 3) Valedictorian

Posted May 31, 2012 at 11:06 AM (Answer #16)

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The object with no doors refers to the egg....white on the outside yellow on trhe inside...no way in or no way out...but when the egg cracks a beautiful creature emerges from it...how can this be possible without a true creator?

Evolution.

 

 

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ammoorah123 | Student, Grade 11 | (Level 2) eNoter

Posted June 1, 2012 at 3:57 PM (Answer #17)

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ok then why isnt evolution taking place at this moment in time.....y is it only a theory why hasnt it been proven yet so many belive in this?

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | (Level 3) Valedictorian

Posted June 1, 2012 at 7:31 PM (Answer #18)

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ok then why isnt evolution taking place at this moment in time.....y is it only a theory why hasnt it been proven yet so many belive in this?

ok then why isnt evolution taking place at this moment in time.....y is it only a theory why hasnt it been proven yet so many belive in this?

You raise 3 objections to evolution.

  1. Why isn't it taking place now?
  2. It's only a theory.
  3. Why hasn't it been proven?

OK, so

(1) It is taking place now. Why do you think evolution has stopped? It hasn't. All living things on this planet are still being influenced by the forces of natural selection, genetic drift and genetic mutation.

(2) You made this objection because you do not understand what a Scientific theory' is. Accepted Scientific Theories are more important than 'facts'. Theories explain the observed facts. We have observed literally millions of facts about the living world... all of them comply and confirm the theory of evolution.

(3) It has been proven. there are many proofs of evolution, but you aren't aware of them. Here is a very very long list, I suggest you spend sometime trying to understand it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent

 

Just because this advanced, difficult scientific theory does not make any sense to you does not mean it is wrong. You have never studied this subject, why do you think you are capable of proving it wrong?

 

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ammoorah123 | Student, Grade 11 | (Level 2) eNoter

Posted June 2, 2012 at 4:46 PM (Answer #19)

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1>>>>genetic muatation is not major the only reason that this is happening right now is because of the food we eat, the lifestyle we live and the pollution in the air.

im in school and unfortunetly i have to study evolution....so yes i do no what it is but i obviously think its a whole lot of crap....and none of the religions really beleive in it....so you can choose to believe in it but i know that i wasnt from an ape...and i dont think you would wana be from it either

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | (Level 3) Valedictorian

Posted June 2, 2012 at 8:39 PM (Answer #20)

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The very, very basic, simplified account of evolution taught in school is nowhere near enough information to understand the full power of evolution. I am perfectly comfortable with the knowledge that I am an animal that evolved from less simple life forms. The reason I am comfortable with this is simply because it is provably true. From a personal experience, I'll give you a simple example... my lower back is rather painful today and generally it gives me problems (lots of people have lower back problems) this is because we are a quadruped that recently learned to walk upright and our lower back has not yet evolved a good upright 'design'. (Or you can believe that the 'intelligent designer' purposefully created a badly designed lower back.)

i know that i wasnt from an ape - Ammoorah

How do you know this, scientifically.

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larareneepaterson | Student, Grade 10 | (Level 1) eNoter

Posted June 5, 2012 at 4:25 PM (Answer #21)

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i don't think so either... THIS is the truth : "It all started with a big bang. *bang*"

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted June 7, 2012 at 9:48 AM (Answer #22)

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It is another disussion with no end as the "Proof of God's Existance" that remain unconcluded with about 96 posts so far.

http://www.enotes.com/religion/discuss/proof-gods-existence-117996?start=0

All phenomena like "Big Bang" and "evolution" are still controversial theories and may not be proved due to limitation of human minds. The topic under discussion can, however, only work as a teaser and can help to sharpen the debating skills of the posters.

The originator of the topic has asked: "God did not really create the universe. You?"

Well, being a Muslim, I firmly believe that it was God who created the universe with His word. And how it happened is a question beyond human comprehension as only He is All-Knowledgeable.

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted June 7, 2012 at 5:47 PM (Answer #23)

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I think God did not really create the universe. You?

this is the most hunting fact that god did not created the universe...

according to the laws of physics we all know that there was nothing before the BIG BANG( formation of the universe )... There was not even space ; time; matter and energy... Now can anyone tell me that in the absence of all these things how does god came in existence and the most amazing question is that did he had time to create the universe? as there was no time and matter before the creation of the earth...  there is no reason behind the big bang so ASKING A QUESTION LIKE " Who Actually Created the universe is as same as asking a stupid question like " Where is the endingpoint or corner of the earth......  AS EARTH HAS NO CORNER....      

A unique explanation for the topic by the originator of the discussion:

ASKING A QUESTION LIKE " Who Actually Created the universe is as same as asking a stupid question like " Where is the endingpoint or corner of the earth......  AS EARTH HAS NO CORNER.... - Rounak Singh

Its good to ask questions, how stupid these may appear in the beginning because most of the time clarity emerges from the confusion. It helps if one thinks. People get confused about God and universe because they do not observe and analyse. It reminds me of an anecdote:

A man who was very hairy and had never trimmed or shaved his hair in life time travelled to the west. He went to have a shower in a bath having full size mirrors. Whie taking the shower, he saw his full image in the mirror for the first time and was horrified by the hairy image, but soon realised that it was his own image and exclaimed:

"Guruji, banda banayae, ronda banda banan nun!"

Translated literally would read as:

"O' God, You created the man, what a hopeless job to create a man like this!"

Dear Rounak Singh, It's good you asked this question. I think that getting in to a habit of observation & analysis can surely give a leap to your understanding faculty. Please keep it up.

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | (Level 3) Valedictorian

Posted June 7, 2012 at 8:26 PM (Answer #24)

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All phenomena like "Big Bang" and "evolution" are still controversial theories and may not be proved due to limitation of human minds. Najm

I'm sorry to disagree with you so often, Najm, but evolution is provably true. The reasons for this proof are not easily shown in 500 words, but NOBODY credible is even slightly interested in questioning the truth of evolution. It WORKS as a scientific model and produces huge amounts of valuable progress. It is ignorance to say it just an abstract theory. It is a very strong, practical and progressive truth. If you can't accept it for religious reasons, well, that is your own affair. But saying it has not been proved is just a sad and desperate self-delusion.

As for the Big Bang, that is not such a solid model and will probably need some modifications in the future, but the fact that the universe started in a Big Bang approx 15 billion years ago is very easy to prove.

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted June 8, 2012 at 6:32 AM (Answer #25)

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In reply to 24:

Frizzy, you are right in your own right and I don't want to argue my point. We belong to two extremes, Creationism and Evolutionism, so it is but natural and I respect your views from that point of view. However, I base my comments about evolution on what learned scientists say about it and for that please refer to my post #6 on topic:

"Which had more impact, the telephone or the theory of evolution?"

http://www.enotes.com/history/discuss/comparison-119623

As for as Big Bang is concerned, we still don't know the absolute truth and may never know as we can never know about the extent of this universe.

I think its better to respect each others opinion and leave it to people to decide for themselves.

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boeing | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 1) Honors

Posted June 12, 2012 at 6:49 AM (Answer #26)

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it can definatly be proven

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etotheeyepi | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted June 17, 2012 at 3:30 AM (Answer #27)

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Hey, Mr Frizzyperm

When you say, "... evolution is provably true ... ," do you mean the facts like fossils, embryology, or genetics; or maybe you mean theories of evolution like natural selection or Lamarckism?

Or something else?

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scarletblood15 | Student, Grade 10 | (Level 1) eNoter

Posted June 18, 2012 at 8:06 PM (Answer #28)

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Personally I do not believe that God created the universe as that is an idea not reasonable or sensible. If god created the universe then who created God. However the belief of a God is something that i am not sure what I think. I have been brought up a Hindu and so have grown up with the idea that there is one supreme God but s/he has many manifestations that look after certain aspects of life. I sort of believe that but I am not sure if I wholly believe in god. God I believe is a manifestation of our imagination, a way out of things, an explanation for things when human beings still did not know that the world was not flat and that the sun was the c entre of the universe and the earth revolved around it.

Although I do believe science provides a reasonable explanation for things like the universe and how life started. I believe in the Big Bang theory and the theory of evolution, not contradicting myself, but I do believe that even these ideas are not fully explained. If the universe started at one point in time from a infinitely small particle, then where did this particle some from.

This discussion concerning religion and science has been an ongoing one in many people's minds and i believe it is a discussion that may never find a concise conclusion because it all still does  depend on what a person truly believes. no matter how correct science might be, some people may find that they feel safer and maybe a human if they believe in God , and vice versa.

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | (Level 3) Valedictorian

Posted June 18, 2012 at 9:57 PM (Answer #29)

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"When you say, "... evolution is provably true ... ," do you mean the facts like fossils, embryology, or genetics; or maybe you mean theories of evolution like natural selection or Lamarckism?" by etotheeyepi

If we have a general, non-professional conversation then evolution is simply provably true. There are millions of observations from the natural world which all inter-lock with the theory of evolution and no observation that refutes it; all the fossils are in the right place; all the DNA we've ever read is in agreement; all the studies of anatomy confirm it; every animal and plant on this planet agrees. We evolved, it is a fact. The staggering number of confirmations throughout all fields of biology, geology, chemistry and physics mean, quite literally, that it is perverse to deny it.

Now, if we have a scientific conversation then evolution is a scientific theory. This misleads many people who think 'theory' means some sort of guess or pipe-dream. A scientific theory is far more powerful than a fact. Facts are numerous and separate, it is the theory which unites them. The facts and the theory become intertwined to create a powerful looping system of refinement. The theory of evolution is such a refined and advanced theory that all experts in the field are satisfied that the theory of evolution is accurate and correct.

(Lamarkism is an old hypothesis which was disproved in the 19th century.)

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etotheeyepi | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted June 19, 2012 at 12:30 AM (Answer #30)

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Hey Mr Frizzyperm,

Thanks or answering my question. Sorry I'm such a pest.

So when you said evolution in post 24, you meant "Natural Selection" or "Theory of Evolution," and in a more technical setting you would say evolution when you mean change in species rather than theory about the change in species.  Is that right?

That's an interesting tactic, but when I meet people (in my case that would be soul-winner, devil-hating, Bible thumping Baptists) who say that evolution is just a theory, I try to explain that evolution is a set of facts, not a theory.  Natural Selection is a theory.

Or do I have that wrong?

 

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | (Level 3) Valedictorian

Posted June 19, 2012 at 10:20 AM (Answer #31)

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Evolution (E) is a natural process. It has been happening for billions of years, long before the human race existed. It happens independently of our observations. We didn't invent evolution, we discovered it. The 'Theory of Evolution' (ToE) is our on-going attempt to explain Evolution as accurately as possible. Evolution is natural, the 'Theory of Evolution' is our scientific model.

Scientists gather observations of E from the natural world and use those observations to create our ToE.  And we can use the ToE to predict what we should look for, and where we should look for it. So, as our study of E continues, the model (ToE) becomes more and more similar to reality (E).

Here's an exciting example of the feedback loop created by a good scientific model... Using the ToE, Biologists were convinced that, theoretically, fish had evolved into land-based tetra-pods about 370 million years ago, but they had no fossils to prove it. But the scientific model pointed us to what we should look for. So they sent paleontologists out into the world to dig in rocks that were

  • a) 370 m.y.o, and
  • b) laid down at ocean boundaries of the correct climate. 

And bingo! After a lot of digging, they found 'Tiktaalik' a very important  'transitional fossil' that displays all the predicted features of a 'fish-with-legs'. The real fossil was exactly where the model said it should be. The ToE model WORKS!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik

 

 

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | (Level 3) Valedictorian

Posted June 19, 2012 at 10:41 AM (Answer #32)

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Hey Mr Frizzyperm,

Thanks or answering my question. Sorry I'm such a pest.

So when you said evolution in post 24, you meant "Natural Selection" or "Theory of Evolution," and in a more technical setting you would say evolution when you mean change in species rather than theory about the change in species.  Is that right?

That's an interesting tactic, but when I meet people (in my case that would be soul-winner, devil-hating, Bible thumping Baptists) who say that evolution is just a theory, I try to explain that evolution is a set of facts, not a theory.  Natural Selection is a theory.

Or do I have that wrong?

 

Sorry I'm such a pest... Natural Selection is a theory.

Or do I have that wrong? - by etotheeyepi 

Please, never apologise for having an inquiring mind!  Natural Selection (NS) is a part of the evolutionary process. As with my post above, NS is a real thing which happens in nature and scientists have constructed a theoretcial model of it. The model attempts to describe the reality.

A scientific journalist has made a wonderful series of bite-sized videos explaining the various features of evolution. I really recommended them to you and hope your hungry mind enjoys consuming them! :-)

Natural Selection Made Easy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q76jw0ZB9hA&list=PL100500E4C9404405&index=6&feature=plpp_video

The Theory of Evolution Made Easy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEKqqrfWevc&list=PL100500E4C9404405&index=7&feature=plpp_video

The Playlist of the whole 'Made Easy' series. 

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL100500E4C9404405

 

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | (Level 3) Valedictorian

Posted June 20, 2012 at 7:25 AM (Answer #33)

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I meet... soul-winner, devil-hating, Bible thumping Baptists who say that evolution is just a theory  by etotheeyepi 

 

Sadly, there are millions of people who are either not brave enough, or not smart enough to question their accepted beliefs. For biblical fundamentalists, evolution is a knock-down, smash-the-bible, game-ender. Unfortunately for them, it's true. So they have to ignore it, deny it, crush it, laugh at it, spin it, poison it, lie about it, etc. Don't let them bully you. The claim that evolution is 'only a theory' is a blind and ridiculous, short-term position.

A beautiful proof of evolution is the Laryngeal Nerve (LN). This nerve travels from the brain to the larynx. Fish have no necks. In ancient fish (our ancestors) the LN went directly from their brain to their larynx, but it also went 'behind' one of the heart's blood vessels.  As we evolved necks, the LN remained 'trapped' behind the blood vessel. An intelligent designer could have simply undone this problem and  re-routed the LN. But Evolution is blind and can't go 'back to the drawing board'. As we evolved longer necks, the LN got increasingly diverted, for no reason. The most impressive example is the giraffe, whose LN travels all the way down the neck, round the heart's blood vessel, and all the way back up. A purposeless 15 feet detour for a journey of only 3 inches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SErP6kQxiFg

 

This is NOT an intelligent design.

 

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etotheeyepi | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted June 20, 2012 at 12:36 PM (Answer #34)

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I don't know any Baptists, who are bullies.  They seem like nice people to me, but they do think that Darwin's ideas chalenge the traditional view of creation. Sometimes I argue that Dawin is to Moses like Einstein is to Newton.  but I did have a science teacher in seventh grade, who thinks of herself as a scientist and a Christian.

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etotheeyepi | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted June 20, 2012 at 12:46 PM (Answer #35)

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Well, I did it again; I punched the wrong button.

I don't know any Baptists, who are bullies.  They seem like nice people to me, but they do think that Darwin's ideas challenge the traditional view of creation. Sometimes I argue that Darwin is to Moses like Einstein is to Newton.  The creationist view favors biogenesis, which is also part of the evolutionist view. So Darwin didn't overturn the creationist view, he only modified it just like Einstein modified Newton's laws.

About the creator's mistakes.

I have a Jewish boy friend.  He says that the creator's biggest mistake is ... .  Well, maybe I should not say.  I don't want to embarrass my mother. lol

 

 

 

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etotheeyepi | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted June 21, 2012 at 3:12 AM (Answer #36)

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Hey Mr Fizzypern,

In this video: The Theory of Evolution Made Easy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEKqqrfWevc&list=PL100500E4C9404405&index=7&feature=plpp_video

The narrator suggests that organisms in later eras or periods are more complex than organisms in previous eras or periods. So, I'm wondering how do paleontologists measure complexity? Are cenozoic organisms really more complex than mesozoic organism?

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | (Level 3) Valedictorian

Posted June 21, 2012 at 9:38 AM (Answer #37)

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Hey Mr Fizzypern,

In this video: The Theory of Evolution Made Easy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEKqqrfWevc&list=PL100500E4C9404405&index=7&feature=plpp_video

The narrator suggests that organisms in later eras or periods are more complex than organisms in previous eras or periods. So, I'm wondering how do paleontologists measure complexity? Are cenozoic organisms really more complex than mesozoic organism?

I'm wondering how paleontologists measure complexity? Are cenozoic organisms really more complex than mesozoic organism? - etotheeyepi

 


A very good question. Complexity is quite hard to measure. Is a bird's wing more complex than a dog's leg? I don't know. But a bird's wing is definitely more complex system than a virus, or a mushroom.

look at this very old cars

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07/08/0815_pebble_beach/image/rfisher-henriod-1.jpg

and compare it to the latest car

http://www.innovationsworld.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/luxurycarinteriro.jpg

 

The are connected and related, but clearly the modern car is much more complicated than the old car. The modern car developed complexity from the old car's design.

Now, please look at this diagram, it's a bit tricky, but it shows a time line for the goelogic periods and life's development. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Geologic_Clock_with_events_and_periods.svg

 

Notice that life started about 4billion years ago and for two and half billion years there was no multi-celled life. I hope you will agree that a single-celled organism is less complex than a multi-celled organism. Well, life on Earth was only single-celled (or less) for 66% of Earth's history. Multi-celled life is relatively new. And multi-celled life started in a basic form and has evolved (and is still evolving) more and more complexity.... (cont)

 

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | (Level 3) Valedictorian

Posted June 21, 2012 at 10:31 AM (Answer #38)

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(cont)... The Mesozoic was 248-65 m.y.a and the Cenozoic was 65-present. You ask if Cenozoic organisms are more complex than Mesozoic ones. It is a difficult question. Are our brains more complex than a dinosaur's stomach? I think the answer is yes. Systems in modern animals are more complex than in Mesozoic animals. The brain (our specialist feature) would be a great example of that. Dinosaurs were not big thinkers! Their brains were quite basic compared to ours.

We evolved many complex systems simultaneously to support our brain development... for example thermo-regulation (warm blooded) allows us to maintain a very stable temperature, which a modern brain needs, that is a more difficult 'design' compared to cold-blooded animals.

Look at the two pictures of those cars again. One is an early dinosaur and one is a modern human, but remember that both of them are very modern, complex animals compared to the whole history of life on this planet. If we continue our 'car' metaphor, then for two and a half billion years, most of life on Earth looked like this...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aPTtJuEVBFM/TtDZ8PgMoJI/AAAAAAAABYk/ggiE5ykXKC0/s1600/Atkinson+sledge.jpg

 

;-) Have a nice day.

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frizzyperm | College Teacher | (Level 3) Valedictorian

Posted June 21, 2012 at 10:39 AM (Answer #39)

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P.S. ... remember that evolution is not aiming for complexity. Complex solutions are usually expensive solutions that need lots of energy (food) to support them, they have to have big rewards to make them worthwhile. For evolution, complex systems are neither better nor worse, what matters is the survival and replication of the organism's DNA and that is all.

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etotheeyepi | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted June 21, 2012 at 1:08 PM (Answer #40)

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Post #39 is the answer to the question I should have asked.  I should have asked if organisms become more complex.  And the answer must be that they become more fit or that they fit better into each niche like a hand in a glove.  A simpler organism might be more fit than a more complex organism.

Also, I can see how a elephant must be more complex than an e. coli, but seems to me, an amoeba might be more complex than some cells in an antelope.  

 

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abdulwahablawal66 | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 1) Honors

Posted June 23, 2012 at 1:59 PM (Answer #41)

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There are many things,a lot of signs to prove that God created the universe,well from the scientist perspected its all said its the work of nature that nothing really created anything,u live, you give birth,you die all the work of nature,when you sleep you dream,some get to come to life and some don't.but the actual fact is that,There's an uncomparable being in which human plead to ,pray to to provide for them,to actualise their dreams.we don't see this being but He does exist,guess all of us belief we've got something called brain in our head,so why is there no God who created the universe?

 

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etotheeyepi | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted June 24, 2012 at 1:55 PM (Answer #42)

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Hey Abdul,

I believe in God. I don't know why exactly.  It could be something like I believe in money or triangles.  Or I believe I'm right handed.

However, I know that, unlike me, some people did not grow up believing in God.  They had a life experience, which convinced them that they needed something beyond themselves.  

Did you have a life experience?

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ayeshanihal | Student, Grade 9 | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted June 25, 2012 at 4:42 PM (Answer #43)

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i think that you are wrong because if you say that you think that god has not made the universe then who has made?answer the question. as i think the god has made the universe.(sorry if i have written something wrong)

 

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najm1947 | Elementary School Teacher | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted June 26, 2012 at 12:07 PM (Answer #44)

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Its wonderful to have a series of posts on evolution Frizzy, to prove that:

This is NOT an intelligent design. Post 33 Frizzy

Just because the Laryngeal Nerve has a long route, as if we have completely understood the function of brain and nervous system. Very interesting! We make tall claims though not knowing the whole truth.

For those who think, the presence of a pair of ears, eyes and nostrils provide enough clues of intelligent design if we see the way they give us information, what to talk of the celestial bodies, mountains, land and animals like camels. Surely as God says:

And we have broad-casted a large number of jinn and men for the benefit of hell: 

Hearts have they (but) they understand not (anything) therewith;

And eyes have they (but) they see not (anything) therewith;

And ears have they (but) they hear not (anything) therewith;

They are like cattle, nay they are more lost than (these).

They are the people who are heedless. Quran 7:179

I better look at my brain size before commenting on the design of a creation by the Creator, at least I don't find myself in a position to do so. All brains put together - no way.

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etotheeyepi | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 1) Valedictorian

Posted June 26, 2012 at 2:51 PM (Answer #45)

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Hey Mr Najm,

Are all scientific theories incompatible with Islam; or is the theory of evolution the only one?

Eto

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abdulwahablawal66 | Student, Undergraduate | (Level 1) Honors

Posted June 26, 2012 at 5:47 PM (Answer #47)

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hello Eto,

yes of course i have,if some people didn't grow up beieving in God,well,that doesn't mean they don't kow God exist.as an intelligent human,you've got to raise the question of what life is and what it is about,then you begin to ask questions in which you get to find answers to, by asking individuals who understand life better than you do and would give a  very concrete answer to what you asking for and you also make research to understand more about about the one in which people say created the universe(God) for those that didn't grow up knowing what god is.all that done,know that such individual will get to know more about who created the universe. 'If asked from the right sources'.

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